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PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE A 



SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE 
COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS 



OF THE 



^. J^» ^f HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



ON 



H. R. 6444 



DECEMBER 14, 1916 




WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

1916 






SUBCOMMITTEE 

MR. KONOP, Chairman MR. TILLMAN 

MR. DEMPSEY 



D. of D. 
JAN 13 1917 



i 



[^ 



4 



PAYMEiNT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 



Subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs, 

House of Representatives, 
Thursday^ Decemher 11^^ 1916. 
The subcommittee this day met, Hon, Thomas F. Konop (chair- 
man) presiding. 

There were also present Hon. John N. Tilhnan and S. WaUace 
Dempsey. members of the subcommittee. 

(The bill under consideration is as follows:) 

[H. R. 6444, Sixty-fourth Congress, first session.] 

A BILL Providing for the payment of certain items of interest on the judgment of the 
Court of Claims of May eighteenth, nineteen hundred and five, in favor of the Chero- 
Ivees, and for otlier purposes. 

Be it enacted by the Senate and HouHe of Representatives of the United 
States of America in Congress ossenihled. That the general deficiency appro- 
priation act of June thirtieth, nineteen Imndred and six (Thirty-fourth Stat- 
utes at Large, page six hundred and si*cty-four ) , and the act of Congress of 
Mareli fourth, nineteen hundred and nine (Tliirty-fifth Statutes at Large, 
pages nine hundred and thirty-eight and nine hundred and thirty-nine), con- 
struing same, so far as the said acts provide for the payment of tlie judgment 
of tlie Court of Chiims of May eighteentli, nineteen hundred and five, and 
interest tliereon, in favor of tlie Cherolvee Nation and the Eastern Cherokees, 
be, and the same are liereby. so amended as to carry interest on tlie several 
funds arising from items one, two, three,' and four, resiiectively, of said judg- 
meiit, ;is folliiws. to wit : At five i)er centum per annum, being the nite of interest 
provided to be paid on said funds by the terms of the contract between the 
United States and the Cherokee Nation of December nineteenth, eighteen 
hundred and ninety-one, ratified Iiy act of Congress of JMarch third, eighteen 
hundred and ninety-three (Twenty-seventh Statutes at Large, page six hundred 
and forty, section ten), on which contract the said .iudgment of the Court of 
Claims was based, on the several respective amounts of said funds, the said 
amounts to be determined according to the decision of the Comptroller of the 
Treasury of .Tuly eleventh, nineteen hundred and six, relating thereto, from 
July second, nineteen hundred and six, to date of payment, and the date of 
payment is hereby declared to be the day when payment is ready to be made 
to the individual beneficiaries entitled to receive shares of said funds and 
warrants therefor actually issued : Provided, That if the whole or any part 
of any of the said funds shall have been heretofore, or shall be hereafter, paid 
out, no further interest shall be allowed or paid on any such part so paid 
out: Provided further. That interest shall be allowed and paid on the original 
principal sum of item four of said judgment from July first, eighteen hunch-ed 
and ninety-three, as provided in the contract of eighteen hundred and ninety- 
one, mentioned above, and in the decree of said Court of Claims of IMay 
eighteenth, nineteen hundred and five, hereinbefore referred to. 

Mr. KoNOP. We will firtt hear from Mr. Hastings. 

8 



4 PAYMENT OF INTEREST UN CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM W. HASTINGS, A REPRESENT- 
ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. 

Mr. Hastings. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the subconmiittee, 
I introduced the bill H. E. 6-1:4^ at the suggestion of Mr. Boudinot, 
who is present and desires to be heard. 

This bill is designed to correct the calculation of interest on a judg- 
ment rendered by the Supreme Court in what is known as the Eastern 
Cherokee case, which will be fully explained by Mr. Boudinot. 

Mr. KoNOP. Was it the Supreme Court? 

Mr. Hastings. Yes, sir. It went from the Court of Claims to the 
Supreme Court. 

I do not care to go into the merits of this case except to say that 
Mr. Boudinot has contended ever since this money Avas distributed, to 
me, to the departments, and in our conntrj^, that the interest ^vas 
erroneously calculated. 

I might say in his behalf that he has spent most of his life at w^ork 
in one way or the other on this case. The (lovernment of the United 
States appointed a commission in 1889 to negotiate an agreement with 
the Cherokee Tribe to secure what v.as known as the Cherokee Out- 
let, being (),000,000 acres of land, afterwards added to old Oklahoma. 
In the agreement that was made on December 19, 1891, there was a 
provision, which w^as a part of the consideration for the transfer of 
this land to the Government of the United States for an accounting 
of all back moneys due the Cherokees from the Government, and 
there was a proAision that if the Cherokees were not satisfied with 
this accounting, that they could go into the courts. The Government 
did appoint two accountants, Messrs. Slade and Bender. They ren- 
dered an account to the Cherokee Tribe, and the Cherokee Nation 
accepted it. The Government of the United States declined to pixy it. 
Afterwards an enabling act was passed allowing a suit to be brought 
in the Court of Claims. It was brought and afterwards appealed to 
the Supreme Court of the United States, and a judgment rendered on 
four items that will be explained more fully. This money was paid 
in part to the Cherokee Nation and in part to the nation for the 
benefit of the Eastern Cherokees in 1910. Mr. Boudinot has always 
contended that the interest on these items was not calculated in ac- 
cordance with the agreement or the decision of the court. Tie has 
spent more time in the origination of this case than anybody else in 
Oklahoma. 

I introduced this bill at his suggestion, and it was referred to the 
Committee on Indian Affairs, and the Committee on Indian Affairs 
referred it to the department for a report, and there is a report here 
among the files conceding that Mr. Boudinot is in part correct, and 
according to his calculation they concede that there is some $10,000 
due. I want to make this preliminary statement to assure the com- 
mittee of the amount of work that Mr. Boudinot has done in this 
matter and to ask the committee that, if a favorable report is made 
upon this bill or any part of it, you will make some provision direct 
in the bill for the compensation of Mr. Boudinot. He has a contract 
with W. C. Rogers, the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation. Of 
the Eastern Cherokees, Avho were interested in this judgment, in 1910 
there were more than 30,000. Perhaps nine-tenths of them reside in 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 5 

Oklahoma. Some of them, reside in nearly every State of the Union. 
A great many of them are dead. It would be impossible for him to 
get contracts with these individual Indians. He is going to ask, if 
the committee finds any amount is due, that there be a separate re- 
port from the committee, asking that this amount conceded to be due 
be appropriated and the disi)uted amount referred to the Court of 
Claims to be litigated. If it is referred to the court there will have 
to be a jurisdictional act enabling them to go into court, and there 
ought to be some provision for representation before the court. 

1 might add that this is the case that Senatoi- Owen represented in 
the Court of Claims and in the Supreme Court of the United States, 
and Mr. Boudinot assisted in getting up the evidence and the data, 
and that Senator Owen desires to come before the committee to make 
a statement as to Avhat connection Mr. Boudinot has had with this 
matter. I will say to you that I do not see how anyone who repre- 
sents them can be compensated unless you make some sort of a pro- 
vision in the bill for it. 

Mr. KoNOP. Was there any compensation paid to these attorneys 
in the prosecution of this case in the Supreme Court, and the Court 
of Claims? 

Mr. Hastings. There was 15 per cent paid. That was allowed by 
the Court of Claims on a very large sum. Mr. Boudinot has a con- 
tract with the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, who represents, 
I should saj', nine-tenths of them who live in the Cherokee Nation, 
but there are some scattered all over the United States. An Eastern 
Cherokee is not necessarily a citizen of the present Cherokee Nation. 

Mr. KoNOP. Has this sum been paid to Senator Owen? 

Mr. Hastings. Fifteen per cent on the original amount that was 
paid to Senator Owen and his associates, but Mr. Boudinot contends 
that the interest on the items allowed w^as erroneously calculated, 
and it is to that one point alone that he claims that the interest was 
not calculated and the amount was not paid that the original agree- 
ment said should be paid and the court said should be paid. 

Mr. IvoNOP. Is it your contention if there should be an additional 
amount allowed for interest, as you claim, that 15 per cent of that 
amount should be paid to Mr. Boudinot? 

Mr. Boudinot. That is my contention. 

Mr. KoNOP. I haA'e a letter from the department with reference to 
these claims and also a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury froni 
the comptroller in Avhich he refers to the judgment of the Court of 
Claims rendered May 18, 1905, reported in 40 Court of Claims, 252. 
That makes no reference whatever to the case in the Supreme Court. 
This is the same case that Avas appealed to the Supreme Court ? 
• Mr. Hastings. Yes, sir ; and reported in volume 202 United States. 
101. That is all I desire to say at this time. 

Mr. KoNOP. We will be glad to hear from you, Mr. Boudinot. 

STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK J. BOUDINOT. 

Mr. KoNOP. Before you begin. I do not think it will be necessary 
for you to make any statement as to the nuuits of the controversy 
that was adjudicated by the court. As I undersand it, this bill is 
supposed to correct items of interest which were ordered to be paid 
by the court? 



6 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. Hastings. That is the point. 

Mr. KoNOP. Then there is no necessit}^ of going into the merits 
of the controversy involved in that litigation. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. This bill, I should like to say, is in the nature of 
a compromise. I have had this matter up before the Treasury De- 
partment and the Department of the Interior for a great many years. 
The claim of the Cherokee Nation is based on the agreement of 1<S91 
referred to by Mr. Hastings. It is for a part of the money considera- 
tion that was contracted in the agreement to be paid for the cession 
of the Cherokee Outlet to the United States. The proposition 
is that the United States got the land and has not paid the considera- 
tion. That is the proposition, briefly stated. 

Mr. KoNOP. Well, that is not the proposition that is involved in 
the present bill ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. That Avas the proposition that was adjudicated by the 
court ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir; not yet. That is not the proposition em- 
bodied in the Jbill. That is the claim of the Cherokees for a com- 
promise of which this bill has been prepared. That agreement con- 
tained a sdpulntion to this effect — T can quote it: 

So \(mii as the money or any part of it shall remain in the Treasury of the 
United States after this agreement shall have I>ec()me effective, such sum so 
left in the Treasury of the United States shall bear interest at the rate of 
five per centum per annum. 

That stipulation is embodied as a part of subdivision 6 of the 
agreement. The agreement Avill be found printed in Senate Execu- 
tive Document No. 5G, Fifty-second Congress, first session. 

Mr. KoNOP. Is that a long document ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. It includes not only the agreement, which is two 
or three pages, but includes all of the correspondence, the report 
of the commissioner who negotiated the agreement, and the reports 
of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Assistant Attorney 
General. It contains about 25 pages. 

Mr. KoNOP. Is it obtainable now? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir ; it can be obtained in the Library and pos- 
sibly in the document room. 

Mr. KoNOP. And all we are concerned in is what you have just 
quoted ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; that is all. It is the sixth subdivision 
of article 2 of the agreement. 

That claim resulted from this judgment of the Court of Claims 
of May 18, 1905, referred to in the bill and in the Secretary's report. 
With these preliminary remarks, I will state just what this bill i^ro- 
poses to do and then the amount of the claim and the difference 
between the two. This bill proposes to pay interest on the amount 
that was actually appropriated to pay the judgment and placed in 
the hands of the Secretary of the Interior July 2, 1906, in trust 
for the Cherokees at 5 per cent interest per annum until paid. 

Mr. KoNOP. On July 2, 1906? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. As I understand, the amount awarded was paid to 
the Secretary of the Interior July 2, 1906? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 7 

Mr. KoNOP. And you want interest from July 2, 1906, to the time 
when the warrants were paid? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. That is what the bill provides. . In round 
numbers, I will state for the information of the committee that, ac- 
cording to the best calculation I have been able to make, it will 
amount to date to about $825,000 for all of the items, items 1, 2, 3, 
and 4. Item 2, the item that belongs to the individuals called the 
Eastern Cherokees, amounts to about $800,000 up to now. 

Mr. KoNOP. Would you have any objection, Mr. Boudinot, to tak- 
ing up these items one after the other embraced in the judgment of 
the Court of Claims and explaining just what you claim on each 
item ? 

Mr. Boudinot. Item 1, appropriated on June 30, lOOO, and paid to 
the Secretary of the Interior July 2. 1006, amounted to $11,520.46. 

Mr. KoNOP. That was for principal and interest? 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. The sum was $2,125 ? , 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir. 

^Ir. KoNOP. With interest from February 27, 1819, to date of 
payment ? 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir; and treating the date of the appropriation 
or the time it was paid to the trustee for the Cherokee Nation as the 
date of payment it amounted on that date to $11,520.46. It is the 
interest on that amount until the warrants were issued to pay it that 
we claim. 

Mr. KoNOP. The principal sum in item No. 1 is $2,125 ? 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. Together with interest from February 27, 1819, to 
July 2. 1906? 

Mr. Boudinot. Xot exactly. 

Mr. KoNOP. To the date of ])ayment? 

Mr. Boudinot. To May 14, 1906. 

Mr. KoNOP. To May 14, 1906? 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. You claim interest on this amorint of $11,520.46 from 
May 14, 1906, to when? 

Mr. Boudinot. From July 2, 1906. 

Mr. KoNOP. Until when? 

Mr. Boudinot. Until it is paid. 

Mr. KoNOP. xVll of it is not paid? 

Mr. Boudinot. I have a letter from the Commissioner of Indian 
Affairs about that. I do not know whether it has been paid or not, 
and neither do they. 

Mr. Hastings. A part has been paid. 

Mr. Boudinot. Probably it has been merged into the general funds 
of the Cherokee Nation since that date, but interest was not paid 
at all after May 14, 1906, on this item until May 26. 1910. Then 
the Secretary transferred this item to the school fund of the Chei-okoe 
Nation, which is an interesting-bearing fund under the general law. 
He was directed to put it to the credit of the school fund b>- the 
court at the time the decree was rendered. For some reason he did 
not do it; he held it there for four years. This bill simply pro- 
poses to pay the interest for the four years that he held it without 
interest. 



8 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. KoNOP. He failed to put it in the school f un<l ? 

Mr. BouniNOT. The court had directed him to do that. 

Mr. KoNOP. Would you consider when this money of item 1 was 
turned frou) the Secretary of the Interior to the school fund that that 
was the date of payment provided for in the judgment? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir. I would say that the date of payinent 
provided for in the judgment would be the date of ap])ropriation, as 
far as this item is concerned. This item was in favor of the Cherokee 
school fund. 

Mr. Koxop. You claim that when he turned it to the school fund 
that that was the date of payment as provided for in this judgment? 

INIr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. You claim interest for about four years? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. On that item. 

Mr. KoNOP. About $11,000. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. That is what the bill provides; that 
is all. 

Item No. -2 is the big one. On July 2, 1006 

Mr. KoNOP (interposing). First state the item as the court stated 
it — the i)rincipal sum? 

Mr. BoiTDiNOT. $1,111,281:. 70. with interest at 5 per cent per 
annum from June 12, 1838, to date of pavment. 

Mr. KoNOP. What did that aniount to July 2, 1906?- 

Mr. BouDTNOT. $1:,,937,036.16, which was paid to the Secretary of 
the Interior on July 2, 1900. in trust for the Cherokee Nation. The 
direction Avas that it should be held by him for certain preliminary 
purposes, paying the attorney fees, and then to be distributed to the 
individual Cherokees entitled to receive it. This bill provides for 
the payment of 5 per cent interest on that amount from the same 
date. 

Item No. 2, according to the same method of calculation, under the 
same decision of the comptroller in July, 1906, amounted to $1,937,- 
036.16. This bill provides for the payment of 5 per cent interest on 
that amount until it is actually paid to the Cherokees. 

Mr. KoNOP. It has not been paid? 

Mr. BouDixoT. On March 15, 1910, the part conceded by the Gov- 
ernment was paid out, leaving a balance, in round numbers, of 
$603,000. 

Mr. Koxop. How did vou arive at $603,000? Is that the interest 
on the $4,000,000 from July 2, 1906, to this time in 1910?" 

Mr. BouDiNOT. The $603,000 is the difference between what this 
amount would have been if they had paid the interest up to March 15, 
1910, and the amount that w^as paid out on March 15, 1910. If we 
had received 5 per cent on the $1,937,036.16 until March 15, 1910, it 
would have amounted to $4,813,503.31, if the interest had been paid 
as provided by the bill. On March 15, 1910, they paid us $4,209,560.51. 

I\Ir. H vsTTNGS. Less some attorneys fees that had been paid direct 
to the attorneys? 

Mv. BoLDiNOT. Yes, sir. This calculation is the net result. I am 
just giving you the figures that would result as appropriation if 
the bill went into law. Whei-ever the amount paid to attornej^s or 
for any other purpose was of sufficient size to invade the interest- 
bearing principal that has been deducted. 



PAYMENT OP INTEREST ON CHEEOKEE JUDGMENT. 9 

ivii. JDouDiNOT. les, Sir. ■ 

' Mr. KoNOP. To satisfy this judgment? 
Mr. BouDiNOT. That is it. 

^Ir. BororxoT. Yes, sir. 

^Jr. KoNop. But he did not do it? 

Mr. Hastings. Until March 15, 1910 

from tWs'srOOO 000 ^f" ^'' l^^^' • ^^^^^"^ting the attorney fees 
190? to Maih ?f IQin' '"'"1^?^^"^ '^ ^^ '^ Per cent from July 2, 

\r; %^^''^''^^ ^'\IV^^^ -^^o" c^'^1"^ tli'^t there is how much due? 

Mr. BoroiNOT. $603,912.81:. 

M-?i^Jh^l'oio'?'-/^^f ^'? '^^l '^''''^ i^^^^'^st on that amount from 
du" hid been n!lde. " '"'' '^"' '^" P'^^"^"^* «" ^^^ ^^^^^'^^^ then 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; that is what I claim. 

Mr. J iLLMAN. Was the $600,000 paid ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir. 

JJr- KoNOP. But the $4,000,000 was paid ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. It was paid. 

Mr. KoNOP. Cutting out the attorney's fees from July 2, 1906? 
^ Mr. BouDiNOT. Cutting out the attorneys fees and the exben'sps 
incurred by the Secretary of the Interior for makin^tt Si toSe 

M^rSi Yr;^10 ^^^?,^^--'-- t^---l-« receiyed^$4.m8ian ^ 
^uaicn 1. , x910. It may be of interest to state that if this debt hnd 
been paid when due under the agreement, the date w Ln durhav no^ 
been found by the Su].reme Court to haye been March 4 1895 the 
Cherokees on that date would haye receiyed $4,263,000 Af er wa 

yAco o'oo'''t^.^'''''^'T-^^^''"'^^^'^« receiyed $4,105,000 insteacf of 
$4,26o.000. That has nothing to do with the merits of the proposi- 
tion except to show how much money they really lo^t 

Mr. KoN OP. By the delay ? " ' • -• 

Mr. BouniNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoKop. Take up the other item 

]M.r. BouDiNOT. That is a small item 

Mr. KoNOP. The principal is $432.28 with interest thereon at the 
rate of .per cent from January 1, 1871, to date of paymeir 
$U40.49 '^''''"'^" ^^^^"^'^t^^- i^ th^ s^"^e way it" amounted to 

Mr. KoNOP. On July 2, 1906? 

Mr. BouniNoT. Yes," sir. That amount has been held by thp Sppvp 

fund m the hands o the Seeretan-, I havo his letter stating a 
the money is held on his hooks without interest 

Mr. Hastings, If you Inn o the letter. tlKuild it not be incorporated 

m the record ? p^^iatea 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 



10 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. KoNOP. All of the correspondence and any documents that seem 
of interest will be incorporated at the end of the hearing. 

Take up item No. -4. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Item No. -t is the one in which an error has occurred. 
The error has been admitted by both the comptroller, as you see in 
the letter, and by the Secretary of the Interior. The principal sum 
was $20,406.25 w"^ith interest from July 1, 1003, to date of payment. 

Mr. KoNOP. It should be July 1, 1893? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. In the printed report of this case, 202 
United States, that error does not appear. The judgment as it ap- 
pears in the Supreme Court printed report has a corrected date. 

Mr. KoKOP. It has July 1. 1893. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. I notice in the letter of the Secretary of the Interior 
and also in the letter of the comptroller to the Secretary of the 
Treasury that they admit that that is a clerical error and that it 
should be from July 1, 1893, to the date of payment. What was 
paid on that? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. What was actually paid, not counting this mistake? 

Mr. KoNOP. What was paid by the department? 

Mr. BouDTNOT. It was paid in the same manner as they paid the 
others. 

Mr. KoNOP. Did they compute the interest from July 1, 1893? 

Mr. BournxoT. No, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. The decision shows that it should be computed from 
July 1, 1893, as you suggest? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. The decision, yes; but the judgment itself made 
this clerical mistake. It showed in the judgment July 1, 1903. 

Mr. Tillman. AYhat is your theory as to how that error occurred? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Next month Ave ma}^ write letters and say " 1916 " 
instead of " 1917." 

Mr. Tillman. Just a careless mistake? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. This judgment was rendered after 1900. 

Mr. KoNOP. Could you not get that corrected by the court? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir; I have tried. I had this matter before the 
Court of Claims and they finall.v refused to receive any application. 

Mr. KoNOP. On an application for the correction of a judgment, 
because there had been a mistake in the date, a clerical mistake, 1 
should think that the court would readily correct it. 

Mr. BouDixoT. I think they ought to. I think the simple way 
would be to have it corrected here. 

Mr. KoNOP. By Congress? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. You say that you have made an application to the 
court to correct it? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Ever since I discovered the mistake I have taken it 
up with everybody who ought to or might correct it — the Treasury 
Department, the Interior Department, and the Court of Claims. 

Mr. KoNOP. I do not know the proceeding in any of the Ignited 
States courts, but if it happened in our courts in the State a formal 
application to the court to correct a clerical error in a judgment 
would be granted on proper showing. 

Mr. Hastings. The reason they would not hear you was because 
of the time that had elapsed, because Congress had made an appro- 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 11 

priation, and because the matter had been closed. There was no 
money to pay any additional judgment, and so they did not hear you 
at ali 

Mr. BouDixoT. They did not hear me at all. But that was the 
reason, that the recommendation should be made from the Interior 
Department. That was given me informally, that the matter had 
been passed on — it had gone through the Supreme Court. 

Mr. Hastings. Answering Mr. Konop's question, they said your 
contention about item 4 showed that the interest should be calculated 
from July 2, 1906, up to the present time? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hastings. And part of it was paid? 

Mr. BoiDiNOT. Yes, sir. I have only made the calculation on item 
4, because it belonged to the principal of the Cherokee national fund. 

Mr. Hastings. That was an interest-bearing fund? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; a 5 per cent interest-bearing fund. In- 
terest on the amount of item 4 ought to have been paid — and it Avould 
have been paid but for this clerical error — up to the date of appro- 
priation. The letter of the Secretary concedes that, but says that he 
is not ready to say Avhether we should have interest on this increased 
amount from July 2, 1906, up to the date of payment. 

Mr. KoNOP. That' is the same proposition as in items 1, 2, and 3, 
interest from July 2, 1906, to March 15, 1910? 

Mr. BocDiNOT. As to item 2, March 15, 1910; but these other items 
belong to different funds, and the total sum involved is from July 2, 
1906, until paid, whatever the date might be. They might have been 
paid before March 15, 1910. 

Mr. Hastings. Only up to the date of payment? 

Mr. BoumNOT. Yes, sir. I am contending that they were interest- 
bearing funds, and until paid they should bear interest. I contend 
that items 1 and 4 — if the committee sees fit to divide this bill, to 
make an appropriation for this part that is conceded and to refer 
the rest to the Court of Claims; but, whatever you do with the rest, 
as to items 1 and 4 I Avant to ask that interest be allowed on them 
from July 2, 1906, until paid, not for the same reason that I want 
interest on the other items but for the additional reason that these 
items belong to interest-bearing funds that were put into the hands 
of the United States, and the Secretary was directed by the decree 
itself to so place these funds. 

Mr. KoNOP. Your contention is that because the Secretary of the 
Interior had the money placed to his credit on July 2, 1906, and did 
not place it to the credit of the Cherokee Indians in the Treasury of 
the United States until March 15, 1910, that the United States 
Government shou.ld pay interest from July 2, 1906, to March 15, 
1910, because it was not credited on the books of the Treasury to 
the Cherokee Tribe of Indians? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. That is my contention. In the case of Indians, tlie 
Secretary of the Interior is the United States, he is our trustee. 

Mr. KoNOP. Supposing that this fund was in the hands of the Sec- 
retary of the Interior and there was no i)r(>vision made in any agree- 
ment relating to interest, is there not some general law whereby the 
trust funds of the Indians bear interest? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; at the rate of 5 per cent. 



12 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. HxVSTiNGS. Five per cent, I think it is. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hastings. That is the basis of his contention. All of these 
trust funds of the Cherokees, in whatever fund, bear interest at the 
rate of 5 per cent. 

]\Ir. KoNOP. Under the general law ? 

Mr. Hastings. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. Not under any agreement with the Cherokee Indians? 

Mr. BouoiNOT. No ; even if there had not been that treaty. 

Mr. KoNOP. If there was no treaty at all referring to interest, as 
a general proposition, these funds of the Indians that are in the 
hands of the Secretary of the Interior or in the Treasury of the 
United States bear interest at the rate of 5 per cent? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; as a general proposition. As to items 1 
and 4, that general law would undoubtedly apply, because they be- 
long to these two interest-bearing funds, the school fund and the 
national fund. 

Mr. Hastings. Did not this agreement that was the basis of this 
suit in 181)1. when the Cherokees sold this Outlet, provide that they 
should pay interest to the date that the mone}^ was credited to the 
various funds? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; that is a special law. My position is 
that the special law applied to these particular funds and would 
supersede any general law. 

Mr. Hastings. And the general law also provided for it? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir ; as to items 1 and -1. 

Mr. KoNOP. Does not the Secretary of the Interior at the end of 
each year add to the trust-bearing funds of the Indians interest at 
5 per cent, and in that way enhance the funds to the amount of the 
interest ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. He should do it. 

Mr. Hastings. That is your contention? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. Does he not do it? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. The reason stated in this letter to me is that these 
funds were not ])laced to the credit of this interest-bearing fund 
until May 26, 1910. 

Mr. Hastings. x\s I understand Mr. Boudinot's contention, it was 
the duty of the Secretary of the Interior to immediately place these 
several amounts to the credit of the various funds as he was directed 
to do, and that the funds should bear interest until he did do it. 

Mr. KoNOP. It would seem to me that the}' would hear interest 
whether credited to the fund or not credited to the fund. As a gen- 
eral proposition, if the Secretary of the Interior had on hand, say, 
a million dollars belonging to any tribe of Indians, whether or not 
he put it to the credit of the fund of those Indians, it Avould bear 
interest. 

Mr. Tillman. The Indians would not have possessi(m. 

Mr. KoNOP. It would be in the possession of a Government official. 

Mr. BoiDixoT. I Inne discussed that in a little memcrandu.m which 
I have prepared and which I will file with the committee. 

Mr. Koxop. Are these Indians on a reservation? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No; we are a part of the State of Oklahoma now. 

Mr. KoNOP. You have all been allotted? 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 13 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; all of ns. 

Mr. KoNOP. Do all of the Indians have patents in fee or trust 
patents to their estates? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. They haA'e actual deeds from the (xovernnient. 

INIr. KoNOP. All of them? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. The,y are citizens of the State of Oklahoma, 

]Mr. Hastings. Yes, sir. They were made citizens by the act of 
March 3, 1901, long before Oklahoma was admitted. So when Okla- 
homa came into the Union they were all citizens of the State of Okla- 
homa. 

Mr. KoNOP. Do the}' vote? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. And they all take care of their own property? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. A certain class, some full-blooded Indians 
are under supervision as to certain of their property. 

Mr. KoNOP. Under the guardianship of the Secretary? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hastings. An Indian on the roll as a half blood is known as 
a restricted Indian, and the Secretary of the Interior assumes certain 
supervision over their land and over the money which he holds, not 
over the money which they themselves have. For instance, a half- 
blood Indian can not lease or otherwise dispose of or encumber his 
homestead, and the Secretary supervises the disbursement of any 
fund which the Secretary has to the credit of that particular Indian. 
That is the difference. 

ISIr. KoNOP. The Secretary in his letter of Xovember 18, 191G, to 
Mr. Bouclinot says: 

From the books of the Indian Office it appears that the snni of $4,972,992.04, 
appropriated liy the deticiency act approved .Inne 30, 1906 (34 Stats. L., 664), 
\Aiiich amount included $1,134,248.23 as principal and $3,838,743.81 as interest, 
was credited to tlie CIieroli;ee Nation on July 2, 1906, luider the title " Judg- 
ment, Court of Claims, Cherolcee Nation." It appears that there was also 
credited to the Cherokee Nation under said heading the sum of $161,324.94 
by Treasury warrant No. 58, dated April 19, 1910, said amount being additional 
interest at 5 per cent per annum on $1,111,284.70, item No. 2 of the judgment 
of the Court of Claims of May 18, 1905, appropriated by the deficiency act 
of ]March 4, 1909 (35 Stats. L.. 938). (See Comptroller's decision of Apr. 2, 
1910. ) 

From this it appears that interest has been added from July 2, 
1906, to April 19, 1910 ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I will explain that. lender the act of JNIarch 4, 

1909, and which is found in 35 Stats. L., 938, 939, at the request of 
the Court of Claims Congress provided that interest on item 2 
should be carried up to such time as the roll of the beneficiaries 
entitled to receive the money should be approved by the Court of 
Claims. That date turned out to be March 15, 1910. Under that 
law the comptroller made a second decision which is dated April 2. 

1910, rescinding the decision under which the amount had been paid 
in 1906, and then holding that the total sum to be paid the Chero- 
kees under the judgment with interest was $1,111,284.70, with in- 
terest from June 12, 1838, to March 15, 1910. That $161,000 in 
interest represents the difference between the kind of calculation 
the United States made finally and the kind that was made in 1906, 
when this large amount was paid to the Secretary. It is simply 



14 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

a matter of bookkeeping and was based on the construction placed 
on the act of 1909 by the comptroller. Our contention is that by the 
act of 1909 item 2 being a concrete liquidated amount in the Treasury 
and known to be such'by Congress when they directed that interest 
on item 2 be carried up to this time Congress meant to pay interest 
on the fund in the Treasury. That is the $4,000,000 fund. That is 
what the bill provides for, ' The comptroller did not take that view 
of it. 

Mr. Hastings, And you ask to go to the court on that propo- 
sition ? 

ISIr. BorniNOT. On that proposition the Secretary has recommended 
that I go to court. 

Mr. ivoNOP. That is provided in the bill? 

Mr. Hastings. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BorniNOT. Not in this bill, but the Secretary advises it, 

Mr, Hastings. That is what I mean. 

Mr. Bofdinot. As to the interest since 1902 the Secretary has 
recommended that the matter be referred to the Court of Claims. 

]\Ir. KoNOP, I am not clear on this item No. 2 from the statement 
in this letter. This part of the letter which states : 

From tlie hooks of the Indian Offiie it appear that the sum of .$4,972,992.04. 
appropriated hy t\v? deticieney ar-t approved .lune 80, 1906 (34 Stats. L., 604), 
A\-hich amount "included .$1,134,248.23 as in-incipal. and $3,838,743.81 as interest, 
was credited to the Cherokee Naticm on July 2. 1900, under tlte title " .Tudt:- 
ment, Court of Claims, Cherokee Nation." 

That is absolutely true? 
Mr. Boudinot. Yes, sir; that is correct. 
■ Mr. Hon OP, He says further: 

It a]ipears that there was also credited to the Cherokee Nation under said 
heading the sum of $161,324.92 hy Treasury warrant No. .18, dated April 19. 
1910, said amount hein.s additional interest :tt ."> per cent per annum on 
$1,111,284.70. 

Where do you get that $1,111,284.70? 

jNIr. BorniNOT. That is the original })rincipal. That is a nuitter 
of bookkeeping. They had this .'-tatement made and had the amount 
entered on their bocks and when they restated the interest they com- 
puted it on another basis in 1910 and that made that difference. 

Mr. KoNOP, I see what your contention is. They computed the 
interest on the original amount from June 12, 1838, until April 19. 
1910? 

Mr. BouDiNOT, Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. That is where the additional $161,324,92 comes in? 

Mr, BouDiN'OT. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. KoNOP. Your contention, however, is that the interest from 
July 2, 1906, should have been paid at 5 per cent on the sum of 
$4,972,992,04, which was the fund placed to the credit of the Cherokee 
Indians? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. That is my contention exactly. 

Mr. KoNOP. "V^Hiat is the diiference in the amount that you claim? 

Mr, BouDiNOT, The difference is $603,000, 

INIr, KoNOp. And what does your interest figure, eight hundred and 
'some odd thousand dollars? 

Mr. BouDiNOT, Yes, sir, 

Mr, KoNOP, And they figure $161,000? 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. " 15 

Mr, BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Koxoi'. They figure on the original princii)al and you figure 
on tlie amount ^vhich was phiced to the credit of these Indians or 
July 2. V.)()V>( 

Mr. Boi DixoT. "^'es, sir. 

Mr. KoNoi'. Would this 1)111 as now written authorize the payment 
of interest on the sum credited to the Indians July 2, 1906? 

Mr. I>oui)iNOT. Yes, sir. It is also stated by the comptroller. 

Mr. TiLLTM.^x. What excuse did they give for figuring as they 
have and not taking your view? 

JSIr. BoiDixoT. It was only a difference of opinion as to the law. 

Mr. Tir.LMAx. Did they give you theii* reason for figuring that 
Avay ? 

Mr. BounixoT. They never have told me in writing or informally, 
or by word of mouth, that they did not believe that this interest 
should be paid. I have attempted to get their idea, just as you have 
asked me now. 

Mr. TiLLMAX. They give interest to the amount of $101,000 and 
no more? 

jNIr. BounixoT. Yes, sii-. 

Mr. Koxop. The way the court has item Xo. 2 is $1,111,284.70, with 
interest thereon at the rate of 5 per cent from June 12, 1838, to date 
of pavment. What do vcni consider the date of pavment? 

Mr". BouDixoT. July 2, 1906. 

INIr. Koxop. When the money was placed to the credit of the 
Cherokee Indians with the Secretary of the Interior? 

Mr. BouDixoT. Yes, sir. That was the date of i^ayment, and then 
the fund came under the operation of this other law. 

Mr. Koxop. The general law of 5 per cent interest? 

Mr. Boi'iuNOT. Yes, sir; authorizing the payment of 5 per cent 
interest. 

Mr. Koxop. Have there been [)er cai)ita ];ayments made to the 
Indians from this fund since? 

Mr. BouDixoT. In 1910, that is the date of this $003,000 balance, 
they paid $4,105,000 to the Cherokees, presunuibly the whole balance 
according to their way of calculating the interest. These amounts, 
items 1, 2, 3, and 4, every one of them were due, principals plus inter- 
est, under the agreement of 1891. ^larch 4. 189."). That has been 
found and stated positively and emi)hatically by the Court of Claims 
and on appeal by the Supreme Court of the United States in so 
many words. Tliose courts found that the money was a part of the 
purchase price of lands; that the United States got the lands and 
kept the money; that the money was due at the session of Congress 
which convened in December, 1894, and that session expired by limi- 
tation March 4, 189."). The money being due on that contract, the 
claim of the Cherokees, of which this bill is a compromise, was for 
the amounts, principals and interest, that were due March 4, 189."), 
Avith interest thereon at 5 per centum per annum until paid, under 
the clause in the agreement which I quoted awhile ago, which is a 
special law, even if we do not consider the general law. " So long as 
the money shall stay in the Treasury it shall bear intere.st at the 
rate of 5 per cent payable semiannually.'" That is in the sixth sub- 
division of the agreement. The difference between such interest and 



16 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

tlitit proposed in the bill as to item 2 would be about $2,000,000. I 
have taken up that phase with the department and, as in this other 
case, they lune never by letter or in any other way given me any 
reason why that would not be correct interpretation of the agreement. 

Mr. Ko>;op. Let me ask you another question. When this money 
was credited to the Cherokee Nation on July 2, 1906, and placed in 
the hands of the Secretary of the Interior, I suppose that the Secre- 
tary of the Interior immediately proceeded to make a roll of these 
Indians and to make arrangements for the payment of this sum of 
money to the Indians, and I suppose that it took from July 2, 190(5, 
to March 15, 1910, to make the arrangements for the payment of 
this sum of more than four million dollars placed to the credit of 
the Indians by the Secretary of the Interior. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir; the Secretary of the Interior was directed 
to make this roll. 

Mr. KoNOP. Do you think the United States Government ought 
to pay interest when it is given possession of a sum of money to 
distribute among the Indians, and it starts to go to work to provide 
an agency for the distribution of this money and to make u]) the roll, 
that the United States ought to pay interest on the money until it 
is actually paid? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. If they contracted to do so, I think they should, 
especially in view of the fact that we paid all of the expenses. 

Mr. KoNOP. Where do you claim that they were under contract ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. In the contract undei- which the money was due. 
" So long as the money remained in the Treasury of the United 
States after the agreement became effective, it shall bear interest 
at the rate of 5 per cent per annum, payable semiannually." 

Mr. Dempsey. And this provided for the purchase of the land? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes. sir. The judgment was based upon the agree- 
ment for the amounts found due, in the account rendered thereunder 
by the United States. The main issue was whether the money found 
due in the account was only due under the old treaties and laws, as 
stated in the account, or clue and payable under the agreement of 
1891. 

Mr. Koxop. Did not the process of the distribution of this money 
begin July 2, 190r3, when this money was put to the credit of the 
Secretary of the Interior; did they not begin to make a roll and to 
l^rovide agents for the distribution of the money ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. Suppose a court renders a judgment for $5,000 in 
favor, say, of some heirs. In an ordinary civil procedure the ad- 
ministrator or the executor, whatever he may be, immediately after 
the rendition of the judgment proceeds to make arrangements to 
pay the money, and it takes six months before he can settle u]) with 
the heirs — find out where they are. Do you think there should be 
an interest charge for the six months? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I would not like to say positively as to that. 

Mr. Dempsev. I think the court would charge an executor interest. 

Mr. KoNOP. I do not think so. 

Mr. DE:\rpsEY. I will tell you Avhy I think an executor is bound 
to get interest where it is the custom to pay interest. I think that 
an executor can not sit down and say : " I may have to pay this 
money out to-morrow and so I will deposit it in a noninterest-bearing 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 17 

account,"' when he can go to some bank, and that means any good 
bank, and they will make a contract and stamp his book to alloAv 
him interest, provided the money remains there a given time. If he 
actually does distribute the money in less than the stated time, 
of course he would not be charged with interest, because the bank 
would not pay him interest under the contract and therefore he has 
only done that Avhich a diligent representative should do, he has 
made an advantageous contract for the estate. He has the option 
of making either an advantageous or a disadvantageous contract. 
If he makes an advantageous contract, and it turns out that the 
money does remain there, then why should he not be charged with 
interest. That is only reasonable diligence. 

Mr. Tillman. I think there is a distinction between that and the 
Government. I do not think that the Government should be com- 
pelled to look for a place in order to get interest for the benefit of 
the Indians or others. 

Mr. De3ipsey. Is it not a fact that the Government does carry its 
funds in interest-bearing depositories throughout the United States, 
and you might find on investigation that these particular funds were 
in all human probability deposited at interest, and that interest was 
actually paid? 

Mr. Tillman, I do not think so. I think that he must rely upon 
his agreement. 

Mr. Dempsey. If you go into any city in the country, go right 
doAvn town here, 3^ou will find on their windows, on their bank books, 
and on their literature the statement, '' Government depository."' 

Mr. Tillman. I think that is a recent arrangement. I think the 
Government has been depositing money and charging no interest 
Avhatever to the banks to assist them over hard times. 

Mr, BouDiNOT, That was not the custom at the time that I am 
asking for interest here. I rely upon the agreement. Those ques- 
tions can probably be bcvst thrashed out before a court after all. Mr. 
Hastings has introduced this bill for me by way of a compromise. 
I have notified the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of my intention 
in this matter. That if they saw fit to settle these claims now on 
the basis provided in this bill we would acquit the United States 
of all future pa.yments on account of these claims. The error that 
is admitted l^y the comptroller and the Secretary in item -1 ought 
to be corrected. I would suggest and ask that you separate the two 
parts of the bill and introduce one bill and let it be an appropriation 
bill, as to items 1 and 4. The other one would be a different kind 
of a bill, one to confer jurisdiction. 

Mr. KoNOP. To confer jurisdiction on the court? 

Mr. BoroiNOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. It looks to me that probably the Secretary of Interior 
with his Indian Bureau agents was about as diligent as they usually 
are in making up a roll and in paying out any money they may have. 
They took four years in this case. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. It was a difficult thing to do. There are other mat- 
ters that do not relate to this claim. 

In regard to item 1 and item 4 the Cherokee school fund and the 
national fund, both trust funds bearing interest at 5 per cent, is there 

7.S11T— 16 2 



18 PAYMEXT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

anything that you would like to ask about them? I want interest 
on both of those funds. 

Mr. KoNOP. And the correction made from 1903 to 1893? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. In item 4; yes, sir. 

Mr. KoNOP. Can you submit to the committee a draft of a bill?^ 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I have one. I have prepared a draft that I think 
would cover it. 

Mr. Hastin(;s. Mr. Boudinot has prepared two bills. 

Mr. Boudinot. That [exhibiting] is the bill for the appropriation. 
I thought I w^ould carry out in this bill for the appropriation as near 
as might be the exact figures of the amounts that will be appropriated 
under the bill or so much thereof as might be necessary. The. recom- 
mendation by the Secretary of the Interior is ii). general terms and 
just says interest from such a date to such a date. Congress might 
Avant to know how much that would amount to. and I have reduced 
it to figures. 

Mr. Dempsey. Would it not be advisable to keep just as near to 
the bill as proposed by the department as possible ? 

Mr. Hastings. We will see where it varies from that. I want 
him to read it for such criticism and suggestion as the committee may 
desire to make. He is going to separate it. so if you make an appro- 
priation you will have one bill for an appropriation and the other 
to refer to the court — ^to appropriate the amount that is conceded, as 
I understand it. 

Mr. Boudinot. This is the proposed bill : 

A BILL Providing for tlie payment of certain interest on tiie judgment of tlie Court of 
Claims of May eigtiteenth. nineteen hundred and five, in favor of the Cherol^ee Nation. 
and for other purposes. 

Be it enacted by the S!eiutte and House of Reijresentatives of the United 
k^tates of America in Coiurress asserubled. That the general deficiency appropri- 
ation act of June thirtieth, nineteen Imndred and six (Thirty-fourth Statutes 
at Large, page six liundred and sixty-four), and tlie act of Congress of March 
fourth, nineteen hundred and nine (Thirty-fifth Statutes at Large, pages nine 
hundred and thirty-eight and nine hundred and thirty-nine), construing same, 
so far lis the said acts ])rovide for the payment of the .iadgment of the Tourt 
of Claims of May eighteenth, nineteen hundred and five, in favor of the Chero- 
kee Nation, he, and the same herehy are. so amended as to allow interest to be 
paid as follows: At five per centum per unnum on the amount of the fund 
arising from item one of said judgment, as such amount was determined and 
paid to the Secretary of the Interior July second, nineteen hundred and six. 
to be by him credited to the principal of the Cherokee school fund ; that is to 
.say, on the sum of .$11,.520.46, from July second, nineteen hundred and six, up 
to and including May twenty-sixth, nineteen hundred and ten. and the smn of 
$2.14.^.67, or so nnich thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated to 
pay the same; at five per centtnn per annum on the original principal sum 
of item four of said judgment, .$20.406.2.">, from .July first, eighteen hundred and 
ninety-three, \\]) to July first, nineteen hundred and three, and at five per 
centum i)er annum on the amount of the fund arising from said item four as 
hereby increased, said amount to be determined according to the decision f>f the 
(Comptroller of the Treasxiry .July eleventh, nineteen hundred and six, relating 
to said funds, from July second, nineteen hundred and six, to the date of the 
passage of this act ; and the sum of .$2.5,0()0. or so nutcb thereof as may be neces- 
sary to pay said interest i.s hereby appropriated, and the Secretary of the 
Ti-easury is hereby authorized and directed to pay the same to Frank J. 
Boudinot, attorney at law, for his services and expenses heretofore performed 
and incurred in l)ehalf of the Cherokee people. 

If you will just follow' the recommendation of the department — 
have you the letter from the department? 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUEKJMENT. - 19 

Mr. KoNOP. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. We will follow this [indicating]. 

Mr. KoNOP. That language, '- pay the sum " — you mentioned that 
this would be put into this school fund. 

Mr. BouDixoT. Yes; it would be put into the school fund. 

Mr. KoNOP. There was nothing for the Secretary of the Interior to 
do but to credit that money to the school fund. 

Mr. BouDixoT. Just transfer it from one pocket to another; but 
he did n«t do it until May 26, 1910. 

Mr. KoNOP. There was no necessity for going to any trouble in 
making up a roll with reference to this fund, was there? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, sir. The court directed the Secretary to place 
the fund on the proper books and credit the amount to the principal 
of the Cherokee school fund. 

Mr. Dempsey. Just how much was that? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. It was $11.5-20.46. The interest amounts to 
$2,115.67. 

Mr. KoNOP (reading from letter of comptroller) : 

Item 1. At 5 per cent on orisiniil principal from Feliruary 27, 1819, to Decem- 
ber 29, 1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest to 
December 29, 1905, from December 30, 1905, to :\Ia.v 14, 1906. 

Item 2. At 5 per cent on original principal from June 12, 1838, to March 15, 
1910. 

Item 3. At 5 per cent on original iirincipal from .January 1, 1874, to Decem- 
ber 29, 1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest to 
December 29, 1905, from December 30, 1905, to May 14. 1906. 

Item 4. At 5 per cent on original principal from .July 1, 1903, to December 29, 
1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest to Decem- 
ber 29, 1905, from Deceml)er 30. 1905, to May 14, 1906. 

Mr. KoNOP. That is — at least substantially — what is contained in 
the letter to the chairman of this committee, under date of June 29. 
1916. from the Secretary of the Interior. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes. " As to item 1. that $2,115.67, or so much 
thereof as may be necessary, is to be appropriated, if the committee 
agrees to pay the same. Then at 5 per cent per annum on the 
original principal of item 1 of said judgment, $20,406.25, from July 
1, 1893. up to July 1, 1903, and at 5 per cent per annum on the 
amount of the fund arising from said item 4 as increased. 

Mr. KoNOP. You say " To pay the same." Pay it to whom ? 

Mr. BouDixoT. I was about to get to that. It is in the bill.^ The 
amount is to be determined according to the decision of the Comp- 
troller of the Treasury of July 11, 1906. relating to said funds, from 
July 2, 1906. to the date of the passage of this act. It also provides 
for 'the payment of $25,000. or so much thereof as may be necessary 
to pay that interest. Xow, to answer your question, it reads: 

To pay the same to Frank .J. Koudinot. attorney at law. for his services and 
expenses heretofoi-e performed and incurred in behalf of the Cherokee people. 

I want to submit certain resolutions passed by the Cherokees, and 
approved by the chief of the Cherokee Xation, about this, and also 
I desire to ask the committee to hear Senator Owen make a state- 
ment as to the merits of the proposition to pay that amount to me. 

Mr. Koxop. You want this interest paid to you, do you? 

Mr. BouDiKOT. That is, item 4, yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. What is the amount? 



20 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEEOKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. The amount will j^robably be — it is difficult to get 
at it — about $10,911. It could possibly be tAventy-tAvo and some odd 
thousand dollars up to the date the money was in the Treasury. It is 
not there noAv. It could not be oAer $25,000. 

Mr. Tillman. And it could be someAA'here betAA'een the tAA'o sums 
mentioned by you, could it not ? 

Mr. BouDixoT. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Depending upon the amounts? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes. * 

Mr. Dempsey. This bill is not opposed by the department, is it? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Xo. 

Mr. Dempsey. That item you are uoaa^ considering differs from the 
bill as proposed by the department as to the items for Avhich interest 
Avas reckoned and the rates at Avhich it shall be computed? 

Mr. BouDixET. Xo — not the rates. The only difference is that it 
proYides for interest from July, 1898, to July, 1903. And the amount 
of the fund as increased to be placed to the credit of the principal of 
the Cherokee school fund — the trust fund as of July 2, 1906, and in- 
terest paid to date. 

Mr. KoNOP. I can see Iioay items 1 and 4 AYill be all right. As ta 
items 2 and 3, you Avould w-ant them submitted to the Court of Claims. 

Mr. BouDiNOT, They should be submitted to the Court of Claims, I 
think, yes. 

Mr. KoNOP. For determination as to AAhether the interest should be 
computed on the principal to 1910 or on the amount of four million 
and some odd thousand dollars to July 2, 1906— to March 15, 1910. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Or up until payment. 

Mr. KoNOP. Yes. 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I Avould AA'ant to ask the committee to make that 
bill so that the Cherokees might come into court and get all such 
interest as may be authorized by any law or contract on the par- 
ticular fund — only on that particular fund. 

Mr. KoNOP. Is item 3 in the same position as item 2 ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No, 

Mr. KoNOP. It is not ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. No ; it is not. If I had more time I could sIioay that 
item 3 belonged to the Cherokee national school and orphan funds — 
all interest-bearing trust funds. That could be thrashed out in court. 
This item, being the proceeds of certain lands in southern Kansas, 
Avas due under the treaty of 1866. 

Mr. Koxop. TIaYe you prepared a bill for submittino- items 2 and 
3 to the Court of Claims? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I have. 

Mr. Hastings. Eead that to the committee. 

(The bill referred to was read to the committee, and appears in 
full at the close of Mr. Boudinot's remarks.) 

Mr. BouDiNOT. That differs in some respects, as the committee AA'ill 
see. from the bills proj^osed here. 

Mr. DE:NrpsEY. The important differences are that the fee shall be 
such as the court shall decide is reasonable, and shall not be in excess 
of the amount stipulated in the approved contract— shall not be 
more than 10 per cent ; whereas the bill provides for 15 per cent. Js 
that right? 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 21 

Mr. BouDixoT. That is correct; yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. As I understand it, you Avill provide in your pro- 
posed bill for the payment of items 4 and 1 instead of referring 
one to the Court of Claims. 

Mr. Koxop. Items 2 and 3 are referred to the Court of Claims and 
1 and -i are to be appropriated for directly and paid to you. Is 
that correct? 

]Mr. BouDiNOT. Xot 1. but 4 — in compliance with the resolution I 
have here from the Cherokees appVoved by the principal chief of 
the Clierokee Nation. It relates solely to item 4. 

Mr. KoNOP. Have you a contract with the Cherokee Nation with 
reference to the prosecution of the proposed cases — items 2 and 3? 

]Mr. BouDixoT. Yes; I have that. 

]Mr. KoNOP. Now state to the repoiier what papers you want to 
have incorporated in the record and indicate to what items they 
refer. 

Mr. BouDixoT. Very well. 

Mr. Tillman. In the proposed draft of the bill to confer juris- 
diction upon the Court of Claims reference is made to items 2 and 3 
of the judgment of the Court of Claims. 

]Mr. BouDixoT. Yes ; that is what I want to go into the record first. 
It is a bill to confer jurisdiction upon the Court of Claims, with 
right of appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States, to hear, 
consider, and determine and enter final judgment on the claim of 
the Cherokee Nation against the United States for interest alleged 
to be owing and unpaid from the United States to the Cherokee 
Nation on the funds arising from the judgment of the Court of 
Claims of May IS. 1905, in favor of the Cherokee Nation, and for 
other purposes. 

Mr. KoNOP. To what items does that refer ( 

Mr. BouDiNOT. That refers to items 2 and 3 of the judgment. 

Mr. KoNOP. What is your next document? 

Mr. BouDixoT. The next document I desire to have inserted is 
a draft of a bill providing for the payment of certain interest on 
the judgment of the Court of Claims of May 18, 1905, in favor of 
the Cherokee Nation, and for other purposes. That refers to items 
1 and 4 — of the judgment of the Court of Claims. 

Mr. Koxop. It provides for the payment of interest on items 
1 and 4? 

Mr. BouDixoT. Yes. 

Mr. Koxop. What is your next paper which you desire inserted? 

Mr. BouDixoT. No. 3 is a contract between W. C. Rogers, of 
Skiatook. State of Oklahoma, principal chief of the Cherokee Na- 
tion, and Frank J. Boudinot. of Fort Gibson, State of Oklahoma, 
attorney at law. for the collection from the United States of certain 
monevs claimed to be due to the Cherokees on account of the funds 
arising fi-om items 1, 2. 3. and 4 of the judgment of the Court of 
Claims of May 18, 1905. 

Mr. Koxop. To what items does that refer? 

Mr. BouDixoT. That refers to all four items. 

Mr. Dempsey. It refers to all four of the items. 

Mr. BouDixoT. Yes. The next item is a resolution adopted by 
the Cherokees praying that certain moneys be appropriated by 
Congress for these purposes. 



22 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Mr. Hastings, That resolution Avas adopted by the Society of the 
Cherokees? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. Yes; and was approved by the principal chief of 
the Cherokees. The ne:jt document is a poAver of attorney from the 
principal chief of the Cherokee Nation to Frank J. Bondinot to re- 
ceive and receipt for any sum or sums of money that may be owing 
to the Cherokee Nation" from the ITnited States or that may here- 
after become due and payable to. said nation by appropriation act of 
Congress or otherwise on account of item 4. I would ask that this 
power of attorney and the contracts be copied and the originals re- 
turned to me. 

Mr. Tillman. Yes; that ought to be done. 

Mr. KoNOP. That will be all right. The reporter will do that. 
What is your next document, or have you any more? 

Mr. BouDTNOT. Yes; I have here a letter from the Assistant Com- 
missioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. E. B. Meritt, dated November 18, 
1910, addressed to Frank J. Boudinet, attorney at law. Fort Gibson, 
Okla., in reference to certain items of Cherokee tribal funds, and 
especially as to the disposition of such funds. 

Mr. KoNOP. Is that all ? 

Mr. BouDiNOT. I believe that is all; yes. I have some printed 
pamphlets, one of Avhich I should like to submit, as it contains the 
views of Frank J. Boudinot on the merits of the claims. 

Mr. KoNOP. Are these pamphlets all the same? 

Mr. Boudinot. Yes. 

Mr. KoNOP. One of them may go into the record. 

Mr. Boudinot. Thank you. 

Mr. KoNOP. Mr. Reporter, you may also include a letter I have 
here 

Mr. Boudinot. Pardon me a moment, Mr. Chairman. I Avould like 
to state what this last document is. It is a memorial of the Cherokees 
in support of H. E. No. 6444, Sixty-fourth Congress, first session. 
Pardon my interruption. 

Mr. KoNOP. Certainly. This is a letter from the Secretary of the 
Interior to the chairman of the Committee on Indian Affairs, dated 
June 29, 1910; also a letter from the Comptroller of the Treasury to 
the Secretary of the Treasury, dated May 25, 1916. 

Mr. Boudinot. With reference to these two contracts and my 
connection Avith this matter. I had some feeling of diffidence in say- 
ing much about myself. For this reason I have asked the com- 
mittee to hear Senator OAven. 

Mr. KoNOP. We shall be very glad to hear from the Senator. 

a bill To confer jurisdiction upon the Court of Claims, with right of appeal to the 
Supreme Court of the ITnited States, to hear, consider, and determine, and render 
final judgment on the claim of the Cherokee Nation against the United States for 
interest alleged to be owing and unpaid from the United States to the Cherokee Nation 
on the funds ai'ising from the judgment of the Court of Claims of May eighteenth, 
nineteen hundred and five, in favor of the Cherokee Nation, and for other purposes. 

Be it eiKictcd by flic t^cnnte and House of Representatives of tite T'nited 
f<tates of America in Vonqress assembled. That jurisdiction is hereby conferred 
upon the Conrt of Claims to hear, consider, and determine tlie claim of the 
(Cherokee Nation against the United States for interest, in addition to all other 
interest heretofore allowed and paid, alleged to be owing from the United 
States to the Cherokee Nation on the funds arising from the .iudgment of the 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 23 

Court of Claims of May eighteenth, nineteen Imndred and five (Fortieth Court 
of Ch^iins Repoi'ts, page two liundred and fifty-two), in favor of tlie Cherokee 
Nation. Tlie said court is authorized, empowered, and directed to carefully 
examine all laws, treaties, or agreements, and especially the agreement between 
the United States and the Cherokee Nation of December nineteenth, eighteen 
hundred and ninety-one, ratified l)y the United States March third, eighteen 
hundred and ninety-three (Twenty-seventh Statutes at Large, page six hundred 
and forty, section ten), in any manner affecting or relating to the question of 
interest on said funds, as the same shall be brought to the attention of the 
court by the Cherokee Nation under this act. And if it shall be found that 
under any of the said treaties, laws, or agreements interest on one or more 
of the said funds, either in whole or in part, has not l)een paid anrt is rightfull.v 
owing from the United States to the Cherokee Nation the court shall render 
final judgment therefor against the United States and in favor of the Cherokee 
Nation, eit:her party to have the right of appeal to the Supreme Court of the 
United States as in other cases. The said claim shall be presented within one 
year after the passage of this act by petition in the Court of Claims Ity the 
Cherokee Nation as plaintiff against the United States as defendant, and the 
petition shall be verified by the attorney employed, to prosecute said claim, by 
the Cherokee Nation acting through its principal chief, A copy of the petition 
shall be served upon the Attorney General of the United States, and he, or 
some attorney from the Department of Justice to be designated by him, is 
hereby directed to appear and defend the interests of the United States in said 
cause. The law and ])ractice and rules of procedure in said courts shall be 
the practice and law in this case. The attorney for the Cherokee Nation shall 
be paid the fee as stipulated in his contract of employment, not to exceed fifteen 
per centum on the gross amount, if any, that shall I>e recovered for said 
Cherokee Nation. Tlie amounts recovered for said Cherokee Nation, if any. 
except the fee to said attorney, shall be disbursed under the supervision of the 
Secretary of the Interior to the parties entitled thereto in the manner pre- 
scribed by the Court of Claims. 



RESOLUTION NO. 1. ASKING THAT CERTAIN MONEY BE APPROPRIATED BY CONGRESS 
AND PAID TO ATTORNEY FRANK J. BOUDINOT. 

Wheeras pursuant to a iiroposition made to the board of trustees by Frank J. 
Boudinot. attorney, on the 5th day of January, 1915, to secure from the 
United States credits to the funds of the Cherokees on account of improper 
withholding of certain items of interest on certain .iudgnient funds and funds 
arising from the judgment of the Court of Claims of May IS, 1905, and reso- 
lutions of said board of trustees accepting said proposition, dated January 12. 
1915. by the efforts of our said attorney, Frank J. Boudinot. a recommendation 
has been made to Congress by the Secretary of the Interior for the appro- 
priation of a sufficient sum to pav interest on item four of said judgment 
from July 1, 1893, to July 1, 1903; and 
Whereas accoridng to the statement of our said attoruey. he has, during the 
last seven years, expended out of his own funds many thousands of dollars 
necessarily while engaged in defending the interests of the Cherokees at 
Washington, D .C, and it is believed that it will be for the best interests of 
all Cherokees to devote the sum recommended for appropriation toward 
reimbursing our said attorney for his expenses, and to enable him to more 
expeditiously prosecute the claims of the Cherokees and defend their in- 
terests : Now, therefore, be it 

Resolved by the Advisoru Committee of Incorporated Keetoowah Society, 
That the Congress of the United States hereby is memorialized to promptly 
appropriate the interest which has been heretofore withheld on item four 
of the judgment of the Court of Claims of May 11, 1905, and to direct the 
proceeds of said appropriation to be disposed of as follows : First, to pay 
such sum as may be justly due our attorneys for making the collection of said 
money ; second, to pay the balance to our said attorney, Frank J. Boudinot. 
whicli payment shall be in full for his expenses and services heretofore in- 
curred and performed in behalf of the Cherokees, excepting only his expenses 
and services in connection with or growing out of the claim against the Uniteil 



24 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

States for interest on the funds arising from items 1. 2. and 3 of said judgement 
of Mny IS, 190r.. 

Passed the advisoi\v committee by unanimous vote this 15th of August, 1916. 

R. R. Meigs, 
Chairman Advisory Committee. 
James W. .DrxcAX. 
Clerk Advisory Committee. 
Approved this August 15, 1916. 

Rich'd M. Wolf, Preside)! t. 
(Signed in Indian characters: Price Cochran, first vice president.) 
(Signed iu Indian characters: Bill Mankiller, second vice president.) 
Attest : 
[seal.] James W. Duncan, Secretary. 

Incorporated Keetoowah Society. 
Approved this November 20, 1916. 

W. C. Rogers, 
Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation. 



f'oNTKACT i)y and between W. ('. Rogers, of Slciatoolv. State of Olvlahonia. prin- 
cipal chief ()f tlie Cherokee Nation, and Frank J. Rtmdinot of Fort Gil>son, 
State of Oklahoma, attorney at law. for the collection from the United States 
of <'ertain moneys claimed to he due the Cherokees on account of the funds 
arising from items 1. 2, 3, and 4 of tlie judgment of the Court of Claims of 
May IS, 1905. 

Know all men hy these presents. That this contract, made and entered into 
this the 20th day of November, 1916, is made l)y and between the Cherokee 
Nation, acting through its principal chief. W. C. Rogers, whose occupation is 
that of principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, and whose residence is in the 
town of Skiatook, in the State of Oklahoma, party of the first part, and Frank 
J. Boudinot, who.se occupation is that of attorney at law, and who.se residence 
is in the town of Fort Gibson, iu the State of Oklahoma, party of the second 
part. 

The purpose for which this contract is made is to secure the services of the 
party of tlie second part as attorney and counselor at law for the Cherokee 
Nation. The special thing to be done under this contract by the party of the 
second part is to represent said Nation as attorney before the authorities of the 
United States (iovernment (the connnittees of Congress, the executive depart- 
ments, and tiie courts) in the matter hereinafter mentioned — that is to say, in 
the prosecution of the claim of the Cherokee Nation against the United States 
which grew out of the agreement i)etween the Cherokee Nation and the United 
States for the purcha.se of what is known as the Cherokee Outlet, the judg- 
ment of the Court of (Uaims of May IS, 1905. on said agreement and acts of 
Congress, laws of the United States, applicable thereto. 

This contract is to run from the 20th day of Novemlter, 191(). until the 4th 
♦lay of March. 1920: Provided, lion-erer. That if the cpiestions and matters in- 
volved shall be then pending in the courts or other tribunal for final determina- 
tion, then and in that event this contract sludl l)e and remain in full force and 
effect until final dett'rmination of the same. 

Tlie i-ate per centum of fee to lie paid to party of tlie .second part in full for 
liis services under this contract shall be fifteen per centum upon the amount 
collected, the disposition to be made of the money when collected under this 
contract shall be as i)rovi(led by existing law or as may be hereafter directed by 
Congress or by the coint having jurisdiction of same, except the fee above pro- 
vided ; the compensation aforesaid t(» be paid to the said party of the second 
part by the proper officers of the United States shall be deducted from the 
amount recovered, and by the said officers paid direct to the said party of the 
.second jiart. 

\o contingent matler or condition, except as herein .set forth, constitutes any 
l)art of this contract ; and by virtue of and under the authority of said Clierokee 
Nation, acting through its principal chief. W. C. Rogers, the party of the first 
part has employed, and by these presents doth employ, the party of the first 
part, to represent said f'lierokee Nation before the authorities of the United 
States Government (the committees of Congress, the executive departments, and 
the courts) in the city of Washington. District of Columbia, as iittorney of said 



PAYMENT OF IXTEREST OX CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 25 

nation in tlie prosecution to a Hnal determination and payment of tlie sai<l claim, 
for and durinj; tlie time aforesaid and for tlie compensation aforesaid, herei)y 
giving to said attorney full power and authority in the premises to do and per- 
form all things whatsoever that may be necessary and lawful in the prosecution 
of the said claim and for the securing payment thereof by the United States ; 
to sign and execute all papers that may be required on behalf of said nation, 
hereby ratifying and contirming all the lawful acts of said attorney done in pur- 
suance of the authority of this contract. 

The party of the second part hereby accepts the employment herein set forth 
and provided for upon the terms and conditions specified, and he will, to the best 
of his ability, do and perform the services .stipulated and I'equired l>y this 
contract. 

Witness our hands and seals this the 20th day of November. 1916. ;ind exe- 
cuted in triplicate. 

> W. C. Rogers, 

Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, party of the fin<t part. 

Frank J. Boudinot, 
Attorneii at laic, party of the second part. 



United States of America, State of Oklahoma, 

Conntii of Tulsa, ss: 

I, Conn Linn, judge of the district court of the twenty-first judicial district of 
Oklahoma, which is a court of record, do hereby certify that the within and 
foregoing contract was executed before me on this the 20th day of November, 
1916. l)y W. C. Rogers, principal chief of the Clierokee Nation, and acting for 
said nation, party of the first part, in my presence; that the interested parties 
therein are the Cherokee Nation, which is represented by the said W. C. 
Rogers, who is the principal chief of said nation and who resides in the town of 
Skiatook. Tulsa County, State of Oklahoma, and P^rank J. Boudinot. attorney 
at law. who resides at Fort Gibson, Muskogee County. State of Oklahoma, as 
stated to me at the time: that the parties present were the said W. C. Rogers 
and Frand J. Boudinot ; that the source and extent of the authority claimed 
by the said contracting party to make said contract was and is the right of the 
Cherokee Nation, acting through its principal chief, so to contract : and that the 
said contract was signed and executed for the purpose therein stated and set 
forth, by the said W. C. Rogers, wdio is personally known to me and who ap- 
peared before me at the courthouse in the city of Tulsa, in the county of Tulsa, 
in the State of Oklahoma. 

Conn Linn, 
Judye District Court. Tulsa County. Okla. 

Attest : 

[seal.] Frank Ingraham, Court Clerk. 

By R. L. Laws. Deputy. 



United States of America, State of Oklahoma, 

County of Tulsa, ss: 

I, Conn Linn, judge of the district court of the twenty-first judicial district 
of Oklahoma, which is a court of record, do hereby certify that the within and 
foregoing contract was executed before me on this the 20th day of November. 
1916, by Frank J. Boudinot. attorney at law. party of the second part, in my 
presence; that the interested therein parties are the Cherokee Nation, which is 
represented by W. C. Rogers, who is the principal chief of said nation and who 
resides in the town of Skiatook, Tulsa County. State of Oklahoma, and Frank J. 
Boudinot, attorney at law. who resides in the town of Fort (lib.son. Muskogee 
County. Sfate of Oklahoma, as stated to me at the time: that the i)arties pres- 
ent were the said Frank J. Boudinot and W. C' Rogers; that the source and 
extent of the authority claimed by the said contracting party to make said con- 
tract was and is the right of the Cherokee Nation, acting through its principal 
chief, so to contract ; and that the said contract was signed and executed for 
the purpose therein stated and set forth by the said Frank .T. Boudinot. who is 
personally known to me. who appeared before me at courthouse. Tulsa County, 
State of ()klahoma. 

Conn Linn. 
Jvdf/e District Court. Tulsa County, Okla. 

Attest : 

[seal.] Fra.nk Ingraham. Court Clerk. 

By R. L. Laws. Deputy. 



26 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

Know aU men by thcw presents. That I, W. C. R()fi;ers, principal chief of the 
Cherokee Nation, do hereby make, constitute, and appoint Frank J. Boudinot, 
Fort Gibson, Okhi., my true and lawful attorney in fact and agent for me and 
in my name, place, and stead ; and in the name, place, and stead of the principal 
chief of the Cherokee Nation: and in the name, place, and stead of the Chero- 
kee Nation, to receive from the proper officer or officers of the United States 
Govei-nment any sum or sums of money that may be owing to said Chei'okee 
Nation from the United States, or that may hereafter liecome due and payable 
to said nation by appropriation act of Congress or otherwise, on account of 
the fund arising from item 4 of the judgment of the Court of Claims of May 
18, 1905, in cause No. 23199, The Cherokee Nation v. The United States, or on 
account of interest on said item 4 or on any part of same. 

Hereby giving unto said attorney and agent full power and authority in the 
premises to do and perform all things whatsoever that may be required to 
secure payment to him of said money, to sign all papers and receipts that may 
be required in the name and on behalf of the imdersigned principal chief of 
the Cherokee Nation and in the name of the Cherokee Nation ; hereby ratify- 
ing and confirming all the lawful acts of said attorney in fact and agent done 
in pursuance of the authority hereby given. 

Witness my hand and seal on this the 20th of November. 1916, at Tulsa, 
State of Oklahoma. 

W. C. Rogers, 
Piineipal chief of the Cherokee Nation. 

I, Frank J. Boudinot. hereby accept the power of attorney and agency above 
given this 20th day of November, 1916. 

Frank J. Boudinot. 



State of Oklahoma, 
Count!/ of Tulsa, ss. 
Before me. Conn Linn, judge <listrict court. Tulsa County., Okla.. in and for 
said county and State on this the 20th day of November, 1916, personally ap- 
peared W. C. Rogers, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, to me known to 
be tlie identical person who executed the within and foregoing instrument and 
acknowledged to me that he executed the same as his free and voluntary act 
and deed for the uses and purposes therein set forth. 

In witness whereof, I have hereinito subscribed my name and afiixed my offi- 
cial seal at Tulsa, State of Oklahoma, on the day last above written. 

Conn Linn, 
■hidi/c District Court. T»/.S'fl Couutjj, Okhi. 
Attest : 

[Seal.l Frank Ingraham, Couutii Clerk. 

By R. L. Laws, Deputy. 



Department of the Interior. 

Office of Indian' Affairs. 
Wasliiuyton. Xorcinbcr IS, 1916. 
Mr. Frank J. Boudinot, 

Attorney at Lair, Fort Gihsoit, Okla. 

Dear Sir: Reference is again made to your letter of September S, 1916, in 
which you requested for Cherokee Indians, members of the Keetoowah Society, 
information relative to certain items of the Cherokee tribal funds, and espe- 
cially as to the disposition thereof. 

From the books of the Indian Office it appears that the sum of $4,972,992.04, 
appropriated by the deficiency act approved June 30. 1906 (34 Stats, L., 664), 
which amount included .$1,134,248.23 as principal, and $3,838,743.81 as interest, 
was credited to the Cherokee Nation on July 2, 1906, under the title " Judg- 
ment, Court of Claims, Cherokee Nation." It ajipears that there was also 
credited to the Cherokee Nation under said heading the sum of $161 ,.324.92 by 
Treasury warrant N(t. TtS, dated April 19, 1910, said amount being additional 
interest at o per cent per annum on $1,111,284.70. item No. 2 of the judgment 
of the Court of Claims of ]May 18, 1905, appropriated by the deficiency act of 
INIarch 4, 1909 (35 Stats. L., 938: see comptroller's decision of Apr. 2. 1910). 

It further ai)pears that by certificate of the Auditor for the Interior Depart- 
ment, No. 17264, dated May 26. 1910. the sum of $33,769.99 was transferred 



PAYMEXT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 27 

fi'oui the funds cnn-ied under the heading above mentioned on account of 
certain amounts arisin.g under items 1 and 4 of the judsment of tlie Court 
of Claims of ^Iny 18, 190.i, and tlie act of Congress of June 30, 1906, and that 
the follo\\ing creihts were correspondingly made, bearing interest at 5 per 
cent per annum : 

Cherokee school fund $11, 174. o^ 

Cherokee national fund 22,595.46 

Total , 33, 769. 99 

It further seems that these amounts under date of May 26, 1910, l)ecame 
merged in the trust funds of the Cherokee Nation, carrieed under the titles 
stated, and interest thereon at the rate of 5 per cent per aiuiiun was credited 
by the Government and that there is no way, in view of the merger of the 
above mentioned items with the principal funds of the ('herokee Nation, of ascer- 
taining the exact dates when particular items were withdrawn from the I'nited 
States Treasury. The first withdrawals from the Treasury for the payment 
of warrants and for other exi»enses subsequent to May 26, 1910. were as follows : 
Cherokee national fund: April 18, 1912, to Richard Kessell, requisition No. 
1412. $15,000; April 22. 1012. to Richard Kessell. recpiisition No. 1487. $50,000. 

Cherokee school fund: October 12. 1912. to Richard Kessell, requisition No. 
552. $95,515,32. 

It further appears .that the item of $1,106.24 referred to in your letter is 
carried on the books of this office under the heading, " Judgment. Court of 
Claims, Cherokee Nation," and do(^s not bear interest. 
Very truly, yours, 

E. B. Meritt. 
Assistant Commissioner. 
¥j. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner. 



MEMORIAL TO THE CHEKOKEES, IN SUPPORT OF H. R. <i444, SIXTY-FOUKTH CONGRESS, 

FIRST SE.SSION. 

To the Senate and House of Representatires of flie United t^tates of Ameriea 

iti CoHf/ress assembled: 

By contract and agreement of December 19, 1891, the United States bought 
from the Cherokees 8,144,682.91 acres of hind for certain considerations 
.specifically set forth and enumerated in the contract. (Senate Ex. Doc. No. 
56, 52d Cong.. 1st sess. ; S. Doc. No. 215, 56th Cong., l.st sess, pp. 60-62.) 

The said contract was duly ratified liy the Cherokees, January 4, 1892 
(S. Doc. No. 215, 56th Cong., 1st sess., p. 62). and by act of Congress INIarch 3. 
1893 (27 Stat. L.. p. 640, sec. 10). 

As one of the principal considerations to pass to tlie Cherokees for re- 
linquishment of their title t(» said land the United States agreed to — 

•' Without delay, render to the Cherokee Nation * * * f^ complete ac- 
count of moneys due the Cherokee Nation * * *• if it shall be found upon 
such accounting that any sum of money has been * * * withheld, the 
amount shall be duly appropriated b.v Congress * * * such appropriation 
to be made by Congress if then in session, and if not, then at the session imme- 
diately following such accounting." (Fourth subdivision of article 2 of agree- 
ment as printed in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 56, 52d Cong.. 2d sess. ; S. Doc. No. 215. 
56th Cong.. 1st sess.. pp. 60-61.) 

Another essential item of consideration to i)ass to the Cherokees from the 
United States as a part of the imrchase price of the land, exi)ressly set forth 
in the agreement, was the following: 

" So long as the money or any part of it shall remain in the Treasury of 
the United States, after this agreement shall have become effective, such sums 
so left in the Treasury of the United Stales shall bear interest at the rate of 
live per centum per annum payable .semiamuially : Prorided, That the United 
States may at any time pay to said Cherokee Nation, the whole or any part of 
said sum and thereupon' terminate the obligation of the United States in 
respect to so much thereof as shall be so iiaid and in respect to any further 
interest upon the same." (Sixth subdivision of article 2 of the agreement as 
printed in Senate Ex. Doc. No. 56. 52(1 ( •ong., 2d sess. ; S. Doc. No. 215. 56th 
Cong., 1st sess., bottom of p. 50 and top of p. 51.) 



28 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

The iiroinised account was duly rendered to the Cherokee Nation by the 
United States, through the Secretary of the Interior. May 21. 1894. and it was 
formally accepted by the Cherokees. by act of their National Council. December 
1, 1894. (House Ex. Doc. No. 182. 53d Conji.. 3d sess.) 

The account was officially transmitted to Conjiress by the Secretary of the 
Interior January 7. 1895, " together with a certified copy of an act of the 
Cherokee National Council accepting such accounting." (Ibid., p. 1.) 

The amounts found due from the United States to the Cherokees in said 
account were the following, to-wit : 

Under the treaty of 1819. $2,125. wi4:li interest from February 27. 1819. 

Under the tre:ity of 1835, $1,111,284.70, with interest from June 12. 1838. 

Under the treaty of 1866, $432.28. with interest from January 1. 1874. 

Under act of Congress March 3. 1893, $20,406.25. with interest from Julv 1. 
1893. (S. Doc. No. 215. 56th Cong.. 1st sess.. p. 95.) 

With the Cherokee Nation's acceptance of this account. December 1. 1894. the 
se.ssion of Congress at which an appropriation should be made to pay the 
amounts found due therein became fixed and certain, that is to say, the 
session that expired March 4, 1895. 

"With the Nation's acceptance of the account (Dec. 1. 1894) the se.ssion of 
Congress at which an appropriation should be made became fixeil and certain." 
(202 U. S. Sup. Ct. Repts., p. 123.) 

With the expiration of said session of Congress, March 4, 1895. the agreement 
became fully " effective '" within the meaning of that word as used in the sixth 
subdivision of article 2 thereof (supra), relative to the time after which the 
United States nnist pay interest on the money, or any part of it, so long as it 
should remain in the Treasury of the United States. • 

That is to say, in the account rendered to the Cherokee Nation by the United 
States, in compliance with the express provisions of the agreement referi-ed to, 
the United States admitted that they owed the Cherokees certain sums of 
money as stated in the account (supra), under older treaties and laws; and 

In the said agreement it.self. as a part of the purchase money consideration, 
in addition to other considerations named therein, to be paid to the Cherokees 
for relinquishment of their title to certain territory comprising 8.144.682.91 
acres, the Ignited States further expressly contracted and agreed that they 
would pay the said old debts in full as soon as the exact amount thereof could 
be ascertained by them and accepted by the Cherokees (which was the object 
of the accounting), the certain fixed time of payment to be determined in the 
manner also provided in the agreement. This fixed time for payment was 
determined in the manner provided and was during the session of Congress 
that convened in December, 1894, or on or before the 4th day of March. 1895; 
and 

Also in the agreement itself, as an additional part of the purchase money to 
be paid for said land, the United States agreed that : " So long as the money or 
any part of it shall remain in the Treasury of the United States, after this 
agreement shall have become effective, such sinns so left in the Treasury of the 
United States shall bear interest at the rate of 5 i)er centum per annum, payable 
semiannually." ( S. Doc. No. 215, 56th Cong., l.st sess., p. 50. ) 

In other words, the sums found due in said account under older treaties 
•and laws were, inider the said agreement of 1891-1893, finally payalile on or 
before ]March 4, 1895, both principal sums and accrued interest, and to provide 
against delay in making payment in full, or as compen.sation for possil)le delay, 
the above last-quoted express agreement as to interest was made, to wit, 
that so long as any part of said sums (original principals plus interest to 
Mar. 4. 1895) should thereafter remain in the Treasury of the United States, 
such sums so left in said Treasury should bear interest at five per centum 
per annum. 

The United States did not pay the money. Congress did not make the appro- 
priation at that session of Congress, nor ever at all. according to agreement. 

The amounts due and payable I\Iai"ch 4. 1895, were, to wit: 

Item 1 : 

Under the treaty of 1819 .$2,125.00 

Interest from Feb. 27, 1819, to Mm: 4. 1895 8.076.45 



Item 2: 

Under the treaty of 1835 1, 111, 284. 70 

Interest from June 12, 1838, to Mar. 4. 1895__- 3. 151. 938. 31 



$10. 201. 45 



4, 263, 223. 01 



PAYMENT OF INTEBEST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 29 



Item 3: 

Under the treaty of 1S66 $432. 28 

Interest from Jan. 1, 1874, to Mar. 4, 1895 457. 62 



Item 4 : 

Under act of Congress. 1893 20. 406. 25 

Interest from July 1, 1893, to Mar. 4, 1895 1. 710. 75 



$880. 90 



22. 117. 00 

Assuming that the calcuh^tion of the interest on the several items is correct, 
that the above amounts, original principals plus interest, were due and payable 
according to the express terms of tiie agreement of 3891-1893, on March 4, 1895, 
can not now l)e held open to question or dispute, the Supreme Court of the 
United States having definitely decided the matter in 1906. (See infra.) 

The United States not only did not pay, having in the meantime already 
received the cession of the land for which inmiediate payment of the said 
amounts was an essential part of the purchase price, but promptly assumed 
an attitude of passive hostility toward " the claim " of the Cherokees. Con- 
gress did nothing in the matter for more than seven years. 

In an act of Congress approved July 1, 1902 (32 Stats. L., 716-727, at p. 726, 
sec. 68). amended and construed March 3, 1903 (32 Stats. L.. 982-1011. at p. 
996). the Cherokees were enabled to bring suit against the United States on 
the said account rendered to and avcepted by them in 1894. (See supra.) 

The main issues raised and decided in the suits brought against the United 
States by the ('herokees under the .iurisdictional acts referred to, pertinent 
to the claim we are now presenting, were the following: 

The Cherokees alleged : 

1. That the United States owed them the amounts found due in the account 
aforesaid, on the agreement of 1891-1893. 

2. Assuming that the United States were not bound by said accoimt to pay 
the amounts found due therein, that nevertheless they owed them (the Chero- 
kees) the sums of money set out therein, with interest thereon as stated, 
upon the original treaties and laws under which the said money was found 
to be due by the accountants. 

The United States answered : 

1. Denied that they owed the Cherokees anything whatever of the amounts 
stated in said account upon the agreement of 1891-1893. 

2. Denied that they owed the Cherokees under the original treaties and laws 
as stated in said account. 

On the 20th day of IMarch, 1905, the Court of Claims decided the controversy 
in favor of the Cherokees, concluding as follows : "A decree will be entered 
in this case * * *. It will provide : ' That the Cherokee Nation recover 
upon the agreement with the United States concluded on the 19th December, 
1891, and ratified by the United States 3d March, 1893 (27 Stat. L., p. 640, 
S. 10). the amounts found due in the account rendered thereunder by the 
United States * * *.' (40 Ct. CI. at p. 331.)" 

Tlie decree was entered May 18, 1905. ( Ibid. pp. 363-364. ) 

The judgment consisted of the four items set forth in the said account <ind 
did not embrace within its express terms any such interest as was payable 
on said items from the time they became due under the agreement and 
authorized by law. Such interest was not confided to the discretion of the 
court and was not a question of dispute nor a matter of issue between the 
parties in said caiise. When the contention of the Cherokees that the money 
was due and payable upon the agreement of 1891-1893 was sustained' l>y the 
court, interest thereon, provided for in anotjier part of the agreement not 
in issue (authorized by law), followed as a matter of course. 

The United States appealed from the .ludginent of the Cotirt of Claims to 
the Supreme Court of the United States, and on Decenil)er 29. 1905. the 
attorneys for the Cherokees filed a certified transcript of said .iudgment with 
the Secretary of the Treasury. (H. Doc. No. 1418. 60th Cong.. 2d sess.. p. 7.) 

April 30, 1906, the Supreme Court, by Chief Justice Fuller, approved the 
opinion of the Court of Claims and affirmed the .iudgment in favor of the 
Cherokees. (202 U. S.. 101 et seq., pp. 120-123.) 

Both courts, the Supreme Court quoting the language used by the Court of 
Claims with approval, said : 

" In the opinion of the court this case is simply one to recover purchase 
money upon a contract of sale. Ordinarily in such a case the cession would 



30 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

not be made, the deed WDuld not be delivered until the purchase money is 
paid or secured, or at least the amount be ascertained and liquidated. In this 
case both parties wanted to expedite the transaction. It was important for 
the United States that the cession of the territory should l»e made immediately; 
it was desirable for the Cherokee Nation that the purchase money should be 
paid soon. But nevertheless tlie Cherokee Nation had the right to innnediate 
payment, and the agreement intended to secure to them the next thing to it — 
the right to an early payment. The accounting was merely a means to an end. 
The end was the innnediate payment, as near as might be, of the whole 
consideration to be given for the cession of the Outlet. When the cession was 
made the purchase money was due ; the only thing remaining, which was the 
object of the accounting, was to ascertain the exact amount. This is not the 
case of a party prosecuting an indiquidated delit. but a case of sale and delivery 
and nonpayment of the purchase money for the thing sold and delivered. The 
United States were willing to pay; the Cherokee Nation wanted the payment 
made at the earliest possible day. * * * 'j'^p United States were to render 
their account ' without delay ' ; if the Cherokee Nation accepted it the amount 
was to be appropriated by Congress ; ' such appropriation to be made by Con- 
gress if then in session, and if not, then at the session immediately following 
such accounting.' * * * with the Nation's acceptance of the account (De- 
cember 1, 1894) the .session at which an appropriation should be made became 
fixed and certain. * * * Tlie Cherokee Nation has parted with the land 
* * * and the United States are placed in the position of liaving broken 
and evaded the letter and spirit of their agreement." (202 U. S., at pp. 
120-123. ) 

The mandate of afhrmance of the iudgment of the C(nirt of Claims bv the 
Supreme Court was dated Mav 14, 1906. (H. Doc 1418, 60th Cong., 2d sess., 
pp. 9, 10, 11.) 

On May 28, 1906, the Court of Claims entered its final decree, and at the 
same time rendered final judgment in favor of the attorneys who had repre- 
sented the Cherokees in the litigation for their fees and expenses, basing same 
upon a cei'tain percentage of the gross sum named in the decree. (Id. 
pp. 4, 5.) 

June 30, 1906, by an item in the general deficiency appropriation act of that 
year, Congre.ss nppropriated the money to ])ay the said judgment, " with interest 
upon the several items of judgment at five per centum * * *." " Together 
witli such additional sum as may be necessary to pay interest as authorized by 
law." (34 Stat. L., at p. 664.) 

It seemed to the Cherokees that the transaction was now alwut closed — the 
long controversy finally at an end. Their contention that the amounts found 
due them in the account rendered by the United States in 1894 were not only 
justly f»wlng to them under the old treaties and law as stated therein, but were 
payable under and at the time provided for in the agreement of 1891-1893 — 
to wit, on or before the 4tli day of March, 1895 — had been exi)ressly sustained 
by the highest coiu't in the land. Congress had at last api)ropriate(l for them 
the nu)ney that should have been appropriated not later than ^March 4, 189."'». 
They believed, and ha<l every confident right to expect, that the same interest 
would be allowed and paid to tliem that they woidd have received if the United 
States had paid the money on Marcli 4, 1895, to the credit of the Cherokees on 
the books in the Treasury Department and elected to pay tlie interest con- 
tracted to be paid instead of distributing the funds. The contract was : " So 
long as the money or any jiart of it shall remain in the Treasury of the United 
States, j^fter this agi'eement shall have become eft'ective. such sums so left in 
the Treasury of the United States shall bear interest at the rate of five per 
centum per annum iiayable semiannually " ; and wlien Congress also appro- 
priated " such additional sum as may lie necessary to pay interest as author- 
ized by law " it was confidently believed that the accounting officers of the 
Treasury would allow this interest expressly provided for on tliese particular 
funds in the agreement under which the money was due and payal>le and upon 
which the judgment was based. But it was not done, as we shall show. 

The material portion of the judgment in favor of the attorneys, referred to 
above, was as follows; 

" It is, therefore, this 2Sth day of iNEay. 1906. adjudged, ordered, and decreed 
that out of said sum named in item two of the decree payal)le to the Eastern 
Cherokees there shall first be deducted an amount ecpial to fifteen per centum 
thereof, principal and interest, as the compen.sation of said attorneys * * *. 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 31 

" It is further ordered, adjudged, and decreed that the payment of the said 
fifteen per centum be made by the Secretary of tlie Treasury, as lierein directed, 
immediately upon the appropriation by ('ongress for tlie paymeiu of this 
.iudgment." 

The '"said sum named in item two of the decree" was, to wit: 

" Item 2. The sum of $1,111,284.70, with interest thereon at the rate of ."i jter 
cent from June 12, 1838, to date of payment." (40 Ct. CI., at pp. 303-364.) 

As before stated, the approi)riation to pay said .iudjiinent was made June 30, 
1906. and on July 3, 1906. the attorneys presented their claims for fees to the 
Secretary of the Treasury, and also then airreed that, so far as their interest in 
the .iud?:ment was concerned, the "date of payment " should be the d.de of the 
appropriation, June 3<>, 1906. (H. Doc. 1418. OOtli ('ons.. 2d sess.. middle of 
p. 5.) 

In order to .segregate and apportion the amount due each attorney, according 
to the percentages fixed by the court, the Comptroller of the Treasury, on July 11. 
1906, decided upon the following method to ascertain " the sum named in item 
two of the decree," upon which the la per cent should l)e computed as the com- 
pensation to be paid : 

" First, interest at the rate of 5 per cent should be computed on the principal 
sum from June 12, 1838, to December 29, 190.i, the date on which the transcrii)t 
of the .iudgment was filed with the Secretary of the Treasury ; second, the 
amount of such interest should be added to the principal and on this sum in- 
tere.st should be computed at 4 per cent from Deceml)er 30, 1905. to May 14. 
1906, the latter date being the date on which the mandate of the Supreme Court 
of the United States was issued in this case : third, that no interest slundd be 
computed after this date." (H. Doc. 1418, 60th Cong., 2d sess.. pp. .5, 6. 7.) 

There was a judgment in favor of the attorneys in the original decree of 
May 18, 1905. as follows: 

" * * * so much of the amount shown in item numbered two (2) as tliis 
court hereafter by appropriate order or decree shall allow for counsel fees and 
expenses under the act of March 3, 1903. above referred to. shall be paid by 
the Secretary of the Treasury to the persons entitled to receive the same upon 
the making of an appropriation by Congress to pay this judgment. 

" The allowance of fees and expenses by this court under said act of March 
3, 1903, is reserved until the coming in of tlie mandate of the Supreme Court of 
United States." (Id., p. 9.) 

As said above, a certified transcript of this judgment was filed with the Sec- 
retary of the Treasury on December 29. 1905. Therefore, the said attorneys 
were properly and justly given the benefit of the interest on tlieir judgment 
provided for by law. as follows : 

"And on judgments in favor of claimants which have been appealed by the 
United States and affirmed by the Supreme Court, interest, at the rate of four 
per centum per annum, shall be allowed and paid from the date of filing the 
transcript of judgment in the Treasury Department up to and including the 
date of the mandate of affirmance by the Supreme Court : provided, tliat in no 
case shall interest be allowed after the term of the Supreme Court at which 
said judgment was affirmed." (26 Stat. L.. at p. 537.) 

The accounting officers of the Treasury, unintentionally or inadvertently, 
perhaps, failed to distinguish between the " interest authorized by law " appli- 
cable to the judgment in favor of said attorneys and " interest authorized by 
law,", payable on the main judgment in favor of the Cherokees. under express 
provisions of tlie agreement of 1891-1893 and under laws of the Uniteil States 
requiring interest at 5 per cent on trust funds. The attorneys could only prop- 
erly receive 15 per cent on the sum named in the decree, for which they held a 
separate judgment, and, in addition, interest on their said judgment from the 
date of filing of their transcript in the Treasury Department up to the date of 
the mandate of the Supreme Court. Tliis sum was paid to them. 

The Cherokees should have been then paid the sums named in the decree. 
" together with such additional sum " as may have been necessary to pay 
interest according to the express terms of the contract upon which the judg- 
ment was based, or according to express provisions of law requiring interest on 
trust funds in the hands of the United States. This interest was not paid and 
has not been paid to this day. The settlement given to the Cherokees was the 
same as that on whicli the attorneys recei\ed their 15 per cent fees and did 
not include interest promised by the express terms of the contract of 1891-1893 
and authorized by law. 



32 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

The settlement was in July, 1906, and was as follows, to wit : 

Item 1 : 

Original principal sum $2,125.00 

5 per cent interest from Feb. 27. 1819, to Dec. 29. 1905 9, 226. 28 

Interest-bearing jutlgment 11, 351. 28 

4 per cent interest to May 14. 1906 169. IS 

Total amount allowed and paid 11, 520. 46 

Item 2: 

Original principal sum 1, 111, 284. 70 

5 per cent interest from June 12, 1838, to Dec. 29, 1905 3, 753, 249. 90 

Interest-bearing Judgment 4, 864, 534. 60 

4 per cent interest to May 14, 1906 72, 501. 56 

Total amount allowed and paid 4,937,036.16 

Item 3: 

Original principal sum 432.28 

5 per cent interest from Jan. 1. 1874. to Dec. 29. 1905 691. 46 

Interest-bearing .iudgment .- 1, 123. 74 

4 per cent interest to May 14, 1906 16. 75 

Total amount allowed and paid 1,140.49 

Item 4 : 

Original principal sum 20, 406. 25 

5 per cent interest from July 1, 1903, to Dec. 29, 1905 2, 546. 58 

Interest-bearing judgment 22, 952. 83 

4 per cent interest to May 14, 1906 342. 09 

Total amount allowed and paid 23,294.92 

The aggregate amount of the four items, to wit, the sum of $4,972,992.04, was, 
on July 2, 1906, paid to the Secretary of the Interior in trust for the Cherokees. 
No interest whatever was allowed after ]\Iay 14, 1906. The date " 1903 " appear- 
ing in item 4 is an error ; it should be " 1893." There seems to be no objection 
offered to the correction of the eri-or and payment of interest on this original 
sum from July 1. 1893, instead of 1903. 

The fund arising from item 2 l)eing distributable per capita, it became neces- 
sary to identify the individuals who would be entitled to shares thereof. This 
task was not completed until INIarch 15. 1910, having been performed by and 
under the direction and approval of the Court of Claims. Inasmuch as, under 
the decision of the comptroller of July, 1906, this fund was not, and had not 
been, bearing interest since it was paid to the Secretary of the Interior on July 
2, 1906, and since the Cherokees were clearly entitled to interest thereon until 
such time as it could be withdrawn from the Treasury and delivered to the in- 
dividuals having a right to receive it per capita, on March 4, 1909, Congress 
enacted the following item : 

■' Tliat the general dehciency apjiropriation act of June thirtieth, nineteen 
hundred and six, so far as the same provides for the payment of item two of 
the judgment of the Court of Claims of INIay eighteenth, nineteen hundred and 
tive. in favor of the Eastern Cherokees, shall be so construed as to carry 
interest on said item two up to such time as the roll of the individual bene- 
ficiaries entitled to share in said judgment shall be finally approved by the 
Court of Claims, and for the payment of said interest a sufficient sum is hereby 
appropriated." (35 Stat. L., pp. 938-939.) 

The said roll was finally approved March 15, 1910. On April 2, 1910, the 
matter having again been referred to the comptroller, it was decided that the 
rotal amount to be paid to the Chei'okees on account of item 2 of said judg- 
ment, and the fund arising therefrom, would be the original principal sum due 
under the treaty of 1835. to wit, $1,111,284.70, with interest thereon at 5 per 
cent from June 12, 1838. to INIarch 15, 1910, as the " date of payment." It is 
conceded that under this method of settlement the money due luider the treaty 
of 1835 woidd he fully paid and that it has been paid. But the agreement of 
1891-1893 created a new debt, to wit, interest at 5 per cent per annum on the 
liquidated amount of the said old debt from March 4, 1895. the date said money 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 33 

was finallj' payable accordinc;- to express promise under said ai^reernent, so loni,' 
thereafter as tlie said aniomit sliould reiiiiun iu the Treasury of the TJnited 
States. This debt has uot been paid notwithstanding, as the Cherokees believe, 
Congress fully intended to appropriate the money in full by the items in the 
acts of June 30, 1906, and March 4, 1909, quoted above. • 

Even if there had been no express provision in the agreement of 1891-1893 
for the payment of interest on " the money or any part of it " so long as any 
such part remained in the Treasury after March 4, 1895, quoted hereinbefore, 
the United States would still, nevertheless, have been liable to pay the Chero- 
Kees interest at 5 per cent per annum on the said funds due Mai'ch 4, 1895. 
under section 3659 of the Revised Statutes (1871), which rends as follows: 

•'All funds held in trust by the United States, and the annual interest ac- 
cruing thereon, when not otherwise required by treaty, shall be invested in 
stocks of the United States, bearing a rate of interest not less tlian five per 
centum per annum." 

Furthermore, this was not an ordinary debt of the United States. It was a 
trust account, a liquidated amount, in the hands of the United States as trustee, 
and it was unjustly, not to say wrongfully, withheld by the trustee, the United 
States. 

The bill H. R. No. 6444, Sixty-fourth Congress, first session, provides for the 
payment of interest only on the amount of money actually paid into the hands 
of the Secretary of the Interior, in trust for the Cherokees, .July 2, 1906, and 
does uot provide for the payment of the interest promised and contracted to 
be paid. This is a compromise proposition. In consideration of an immediate 
payment, by direct appropriation, thereby obviating the necessity of a long- 
drawn-out controversy, the Cherokees propose to accept the settlement made 
in July, 1906, with their attorneys, up to July 2, 1906, only, however, find to 
take in full payment of their claim the gross amount then actually paid to the 
Secretary of the Interior, in trust for them, with interest thereon at 5 per cent 
per annum from July 2, 1906, up to the date warrants shall be, or have been, 
actually issued to the individuals entitled to receive shares of said funds— and 
in addition the clerical error in the date when interest should be commenced 
on the original principal sum of item 4 to be corrected so that interest shall be 
allowed thereon from July 1, 1893, instead of July 1, 1903. 

This is the most that could reasonably be expected of the Cherokees. By this 
compromise settlement the Government is relieved of what the Cherokees hon- 
estly believe to be a debt to them of a very large siuu of money above the 
amount proposed to be accepted in full payment. 

We respectfully and humbly pray that the bill H. K. 6444 shall' be enacted 
into law. 

With sentiments of the highest consideration and respect, 
We remain your hiuuble servants, 

FkAXK J. BOUUINOT, 

Attorney (or (Uurokee Nation. 



DKPAKTiiENT OF IHK InTEJUOK, 

WdHhiitytoH, June 2U, I'JJti. 

My DEAJi Mk. SiEPitEAs : Reference is made to your letter of April 29, 1916, 
requesting a report on H. li. 6444, providing foi- the payment of certain items of 
interest of the iudgment of the Court of Claims of May 18, 1905, in favor of 
the Cherokee Indians. (40 Ct. Cls. 252.) 

It appears from the opinion of the Comptroller of the Treasury,' dated May 
25, 1916, that interest was computed on the several items of the Judgment men- 
tioned in this bill as follows: 

" Item 1. At 5 jier cent on original iirincii)al from February 27, 1819, to De- 
cember 29, 1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, phis :nnount of inter- 
est to Deceiuber 29, 1005, from Decpmhei- :'•), 1905, to INlay 14, 1906. 

" Item 2. At 5 i)er cent on original principal from June 12, 1838, to IMarch 15, 
1910. 

"Item 3. At 5 per cent on original Drinciiml from Jammry 1. 1874. to De- 
cember 29, 1905, anrl at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest 
to Der-ember 29. ir05, from December .30. 1905 to :\ray 14. 1906. 

" Item 4. At 5 per cent on original jtrincinal from July 1.'1903. to December 
'^9 1905. nn'i nt 4 ner cent on ori"in:d TiriTicijvil. i>Ius amount of Interest to De- 
cember 29, 1905, from December 30, lOOf). to :\ray 14. 1906." 

73117—16 3 



34 PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

There Is inclosed a coiiy of the cuiiiiitroller's opinion, from winch you wili 
see lluit under existing law there is no authority for the computation of in- 
terest on the various items of this judgment on any other basis than as above 
indicated. 

The Comptroller of* the Treasury expresses the opinion that the failure to 
allow interest in item 4 from 1S93 instead of 1903, was no doubt due to a cleri- 
cal error in the wording of the coui't's decree, and that therefore there would 
appear to be merit in the provision of the proposed bill looking to the correc- 
tion of this error. As to the merits of the other provisions of the bill he does 
not care to expre.ss an opinion at this time. 

The matter of the computation of interest on these various items has been the 
sub.iect of coi-respondence between this department and various persons inter- 
ested in the Cherokee Indians. It has been contended that the interest was not 
computed in accordance with the orders of the court and the terms of the con- 
tract of December If), 1S91, between the United States and the Cherokee Nation, 
ratified by the an of INIarch 3. 1S93 (27 Stat. L., 612-640). 

The (piestion of wiiether the Cherokee Indians are entitled to interest from 
and aftei- July 2, 1006, ni)on items 1, 2, and 3, to the date of actual payment, is 
not one uiK>n wliich I am prepared to express an opinion. As to item 4, T am 
convinced that failure to allow inteivst from .July 1, 1893, was due to a clerical 
error in tlie wording of the cf>urt's decree and I have no objection to legislation 
authf>rizing the interest on said item at 5 per cent on the original principal from 
.Tul.v 1, 1893. to December 29, 1905. and at 4 per cent on the origin;'.! principal 
])lus amount of interest to December 29. 1905, from December 30, 1905. .to May 
14, 1906. I am not, however, in a i)osition to say whether they should have in- 
terest on th.e totnl of this item from .July 2. 1906. to the date of pnyment. 

In this connection I would have no objection to legislation providing for the 
adjudication by the Court of Claims of the question of whether the Cherokee 
Indians are entitled to interest from .July 2. 1906. to the dMte warrants were 
actually issued to the individual beneficiaries entitled thereto. 

I therefore recommend that the proposed bill be amended by striking there- 
from lines 1 to 25 on page 2 and lines 1 to 4 on page 3 and inserting in lieu 
thereof the following : " are hereby so amended as to allow interest to be paid 
at 5 per cent on the original principal sum of item 4 of said judgment from 
July 1. 1893. to December 29. 1905, and at 4 per cent on the original principal 
of said item plus amount of interest to December 29. 1905, from December 30, 
1905, to May 14, 1906. Jurisdiction is hereby conferred upon the Court of 
Claims to hear and determine claims of the Cherokee Tribe of Indians to 
interest on the several funds arising frf)m items 1, 2, 3 and 4. respectively, 
<if said judgment from July 2, 1906, to date warrants were actually issued to 
the individual beneficiaries entitled thereto. Such claims shall be presented 
within one year after the passage of this act, and the petition shall be verified 
by the attorney or attorneys employed by said Indians to prosecute their claims 
under this act under contract approved by the Conmiissioner of Indian Affairs 
and the Seci-etary of the Interior, as provided by law, and they shall be paid 
such fee as the (,'ourt may find reasonable : Provided. That in no case shall the 
fee decreed by said court be in excess of the amount stipulated in the approved 
contract, nor amount to more than 10 per cent of the sum said tribe shall be 
foxmd entitled to: And. provided fiirthrr. That any amounts received shall be 
disbursed under the supervision of the Secretary of the Interior to the parties 
entitled thereto in the manner prescribed by the Court of Claims." 

With the changes suggested. I reconunend the passage of the bill. 
Very truly, yours, 

Fr.\nklin K. Lane. S;rcrcta7-ii. 

Hon. .John H. Stephrn.s, 

Chairman Committee, on Indian Affuirs, 

Honne of ReprenentativeH. 



Treasury Department, 

Washington, May 25. 1916. 
Th(> honorable the Secretary ok the Treasury. 

Stu: I have .your letter of the 16th instant, requesting my views as to the 
merits of H. U. 6444, Sixty-fourth Congress, first session, being a bill providing 
for the payment of certain items of interest on the judgment of the Court of 
Claims of May IS. 1905, in favor of the Cherokee Indians (40 C. Cls., 252). and 
asking for my opinion as to whether said interest items could be paid under 



RD 1.48/^^ 



PAYMENT OF INTEREST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 35 

existing law or whether additional legislation, such us the proposed bill, would 
be necessary to authorize payment. 

The items embraced in the judgment of the Court of Claims are as f(jllows: 

" Item 1. The sum of $2,125, with interest thereon at the rate of 5 per cent 
from February 27, 1S19, to date of payment. 

"Item 2. The 'sum of .'«1.111.2S4.70, with interest thereon at the rate of 5 
per cent from June 12, 183S. to date of payment. 

" Item 3. The sum of $432.28. with interest thereon at the ijate of 5 per cent 
from January 1, 1874, to date of payment. 

" Item 4. Tlie sum of $20,406.35, v.-ith interest thereon from July 1, 1903, to 
date of payment." 

Tlie appropriation made in the act of June 30, 1906 (34 Stat., 664), for the 
payment of this judgment provi<led for the payment of only such interest " as 
authorized by law." The act of March 4, 1909 (35 Stat., 938), provided for 
the payment of interest on item 2 " up to such time as the roll of the individual 
beueticiiiries entitled to share in said judgment shall be finally approved by the 
Court of Claims." Said roll was finally approved by the court. March 15. 1910. 
While I am not advised as to what payments have been made in this case, I 
presume that in accordance Vvith the decisions of this office interest was com- 
puted on these various items as follows: 

" Item 1. At 5 per cent on original principal from February 27, 1819, to 
December 29, 1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of 
interest to Decen)ber 29, 1905, from December 30, 1905, to May 14, 1906. 

" Item 2. At 5 per cent on original principal from June 12, 1838, to March 
15, 1910. 

•' Item 3. At 5 per cent on original principal from January 1. 1874, to Decem- 
ber 29, 1905. antl at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest to 
December 29, 1905. from December 30, 1915, to May 14, 1906. 

" Item 4. At 5 per cent on original principal from July 1, 1903, to December 
29. 1905, and at 4 per cent on original principal, plus amount of interest to 
December 29, 1905, from December 30, 1905, to May 14, 1906." 

Under existing law there is no authority for the computation of interest on 
the various items of this judgment on anv other basis than as above indicated 
(38 IMS. Comp. Dec, 45, July 11, 1906; 48 id., 631, Jan. 29, 1909; 53 id., 16, Apr. 
2, 1910.) 

The effect of the proposed bill would be to authorize payment of interest on 
the total amount of items 1 and 3. including interest to May 14. 1906, at the 
rate of 5 per cent from July 2, 1906, to tlie dates warrants are actually issued 
in payment thereof; the difference between the amount of item 4, with interest 
to Mjiy 14, 1906. computed as indicated above, and the amount of said item, 
with interest from July 1, 1893, instead of July 1, 1903, plus interest at 5 per 
cent on said increased amount from July 2, 1906, to date of issue of warrant in 
payment of said item ; and the difference between the interest on item 2 at 5 
per cent from June 12, 1838. to March 15, 1910, and the amount of interest on 
said item computed as follows: 

At 5 per cent on original principal from July 12. 1838, to December 29, 1905; 
at 4 per cent on original principal, plus interest to December 29, 1905, from 
December 30. 1905, to May 14, 1906; and at 5 per cent on total amount, includ- 
ing interest to i\Iay 14, 1U06, from July 2, 1906, to date of issue of warrant in 
payment. 

The failure to allow interest on item 4 from 1893 instead of from 1903 was 
no doubt due to a clerical err)r in the wording of the court's decree. There- 
fore there would appear to be merit in the provision of the proposed bill look- 
ing to the correction of such error. 

As to the merits of the other provisions of the bill, I do not care to express 
an opinion at this time. 

All papers submitted are returned hei'ewith. 
Respectfully, 

W. W. Wakwk'k. Comptroller. 

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT LATHAM OWEN, UNITED STATES 
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. 

Senator Owen. I represented the Cherokees in bringing this suit 
on behalf of the Eastern Cherokees. I had charge of it until it was 
taken through the Supreme Court and a favorable judgment ren- 



36 PAYMENT OF INTEEEST ON CHEROKEE JUDGMENT. 

dered. It was a very remarkable case. The Cherokees had, through 
the accounting officers of the Treasury, a very large sum— over a 
million dollars — just charged up against them without any justifica- 
tion. The Supreme Court held that the fund ought not to have 
been charged against them. It was charged against them about 1835, 
and stayed charged against them very many years, until the Su- 
preme Court finally declared it was erroneous to have made that 
charge against them and that they were entitled to it and the interest 
upon it, because it was a trust fund. It was the proceeds from the 
lands in the east of Georgia and western Carolina s and eastern Ten- 
nessee, which was, in effect, taken from the Cherokees at the point 
of the bayonet, practically through the enforcement of a treaty of 
1835. They were practically unanimous — the members of the tribe, 
about 1G,00'0 of them — in signing a most distressing plea to Congress, 
praying Congress not to enforce that treaty against them ; but there 
was'^ such a conflict of interest amongst the settlement in those States 
that the Government had found it necessary to have them moved, 
and they Avere moved by force. They went into Oklahoma, and this 
charge was made against them at that time. The funds were imme- 
diately charged against them upon the ground that they were 
chargeable with the cost of their own removal. The matter wound 
up and left some of these interest charges not satisfactorily settled. 

I think they have a good claim on some of these items. I will not 
pretend to take up the time of the committee in discussing them, 
but I think they ought at least to be permitted to be heard upon it. 

So far as Mr. Boudinot's claim for compensation is concerned, I 
have no hesitancy in saying that I had a great deal of knowledge 
of that Avhen it was going on, and in saying that, except for his 
activities, the case would not have been worked out satisfactorily or 
successfully. When the compensations were made, he neglected to 
provide for himself; so the claims, I think, ought to be provided for. 

The Cherokee chief is justified in saying that there is due to Mr. 
Boudinot the amounts suggested and set forth. He rendered the 
service, and, I think, is entitled to be compensated. He has been 
denied a compensation for a very long time. He has been the man 
behind the gun, so far as the Cherokees are concerned. He has 
been their friend, their advisor and counsellor, and has done more 
work than anybody else. 

There is an organization of Cherokees. with a membership of, I 
believe, about 10,000. What is the membership, Mr. Hastings? 

Mr. Hastimgs. I do not know, but it is \evj large. 

Senator Owen. It practically embraces all the full-blood Chero- 
kees; and they regard themselves as the keepers of the tribe. These 
Keetoowah Indians are the real full-blooded Cherokees. They have 
been constantly advised by Mr. Boudinot, and he has been the secre- 
tary of that organization for a good man}^ years, and has been their 
principal advisor, counsellor, and friend. His claim, from what I 
know of it. is just. 

If there are any questions the gentlemen of the committee desire 
to ask, I shall be glad to answer them. 

Mr. Koxop. If there are no questions, that will be all. We are 
very much obliged for your statement. Senator. 

(Whereupon, at 11.50 a. m., the committee adjourned.) 
X 



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